Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary

The Catholic Thing ^ | December 8, 2012 | David G. Bonagura, Jr.

[stfassisi]

Faith is simply believing that what God said is true.

Have you have changed and believe Jesus is God and believe in the Trinity Now?

Jesus is God and the Trinity are true.Do you agree?

[annalex]

legalistic cult

Expecting people not free to marry to actually not attempt to marry is not legalism, it is plain expectation of honesty.

not in line with scripture.

How so?

[Natural Law]

"Thus to deny that the validity of the Eucharist depends on the intention of the consecrating priest is what is contrary to RC teaching as provided."

I apologize if I was perhaps not clear enough. I appreciate your apparent willingness to research the Mass, but you probably ought to be framing these statements as questions. The intentions of the Mass are not synonymous with the intent of the priest. The proper intention to confect the Eucharist is ensured by the words that precede the consecration (“so that they may become the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ,”). If the Epiclesis, in which, by means of particular invocations, the Church implores the power of the Holy Spirit that the gifts offered by human hands be consecrated, that is, become Christ’s Body and Blood, and that the spotless Victim to be received in Communion be for the salvation of those who will partake of it, is not invoked no Mass takes place.

Peace be with you

[narses]

Hey narses. Someone left a statue of Mary at the RV Park that I manage when they left so I promptly smashed it to pieces with a hammer. Have you seen fit to prove you are not an idolater by doing something like that or will you forever look at those statues and realize that you are?

Yep more odd stuff from a poster who claims that Catholics are idolaters, that those who celebrate Easter and Christmas are pagans and that claims that the idea of church on Sunday is a man made tradition and apparently not either Christian or Biblical.

[narses]

Hey narses. Someone left a statue of Mary at the RV Park that I manage when they left so I promptly smashed it to pieces with a hammer. Have you seen fit to prove you are not an idolater by doing something like that or will you forever look at those statues and realize that you are?

Yep more odd stuff from a poster who claims that Catholics are idolaters, that those who celebrate Easter and Christmas are pagans and that claims that the idea of church on Sunday is a man made tradition and apparently not either Christian or Biblical.

[annalex]

while it is clear RC teaching does not invalidate a sacrament due to the character of the minister, and which refutes Donatism, Roman Catholic teaching upholds that the validity of the eucharist, or sacraments in general, requires the intention of the priest to do what the church does/performs.

Very true, and thank you for the this elaboration. I was initially responding to a flippant remark not worthy a lengthier response than the one you did, but once it has become the focus, it is very good of you to explain further.

My only comment is that in Sacraments neither the priest nor the Church "do" or "perform" anything of import: it is Christ Who works in any sacrament.

You might have included Momof7 by mistake, meaning RnMomof7, -- unless its the same poster.

[stfassisi]

Elsie-"Does Satan CAUSE cancer?"

Here are my thought about this, but these are only my thoughts and I don't know for sure if they are Theologically right or wrong..

I think a case can be made in SOME situations

Take for instance, if the Chinese Government allows factory workers to handle materials that are known carcinogens and many workers get cancer because of this. It seems to me that the Chinese Government is following satan and his minions in being guilty of causing cancer.

Now , that said, satan does not win because the poor chinese worker has had cancer forced on him. I believe that Jesus will save the poor as is written in the beatitudes-Blessed are the poor.

Our Lord is especially merciful to the poor of this world

[Natural Law]

"Do you think that MD's 'rebuttal' can be re-posted here?"

To: RnMomof7

A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

The WORD priest evolved from the word presbyter. In the Catholic Church priests are often called presbyters, for example in some canons.

The Old Testament priesthood was fulfilled in Christ. I agree there.

However, you do not understand what we say about the priesthood, and so you speak of it as if it were essentially distinct from the eternal priesthood of Christ.

The false polemicists of your side love few things as much as they enjoy getting the vapors and twisted knicker syndrome over the idea of the Catholic presbyter being “another Christ.”

But their loud and cherished consternation looks as ridiculous and as false as most of their arguments and charges because they do not take the trouble to understand that with which they are disagreeing.

This is not mind-reading. It is a conclusion from the arguments made. As usual they are arguments not against what we hold but against what we do not hold.

You see, at least here on FR, the basic Protestant and anti-Catholic maneuver is to shift attack and shift defense. Argument is not used as a tool to find or uncover the truth. It is used rather as a kind of weapon to discomfit the other side. Since discomfiture rather than truth is the goal, when a refutation is made of some anti-catholic argument, the usual response is to change the subject. Thus, the anti-Catholics make the same arguments over and over again and never learn from them.

So, go ahead and cite Garry Wills. His iffy relationship with the Church makes sense in the context of his superficial understanding of her teaching. And the same for the other guy.

The argument, however, is circular. The assumption implicit in citing them is that the ‘true’ church somehow ceased about a generation after the death of John. And this assumption requires that the promised gift of the spirit was kind of a dud. In the protestant view it took the Holy Spirit about 1500 years to get his act together enough to make a successful stand against those awful, stupid, and superstitious successors of the Apostles. The martyrs of Rome and of the various persecutions might be worthy of a little respect, but they were just SO wrong about what really mattered.

So when Jesus promised the 12 that they would be led into all truth, he left out the part about “in 1450 years give or take.” That's what we are expected to believe. And the people who expect us to believe it repeat the same arguments over and over again like machines, while rarely demonstrating a willingness, to say nothing of ability, to understand what it is they are arguing against.

WHATever.

[D-fendr]

prove you are not an idolater … who claims that Catholics are idolaters..

It was an interesting and somewhat humorous discussion of 'what is an idol'? a while back.

CB: do you remember your answer on that one?

[stfassisi]

If you remember, I told you quite a while ago not to post me because I don;t agree with the spirit and tone within you.

I prefer to pray for you only

[CynicalBear]

>> not free to marry<<

Says who? Who says they are not free to marry? Certainly nothing in scripture would restrict them from taking a wife. Scripture actually says leaders should be married with children to first prove they are capable of handling leadership.

>> not in line with scripture.<<

>>How so?<<

Well, let’s take just one example. Find for me from scripture where the disciples taught that Mary was to be revered or that they taught that Mary was bodily taken to heaven. If that doesn’t work for you maybe you could try to show from scripture where we are to pray to Mary. And don’t try that pray for each other nonsense. If you do try that you had better show from scripture where the apostles or Jesus taught to pray to any deceased person.

As far as the RCC being a cult you may want to peruse this list.

Here’s a list I’ve gotten from different sources who warn about cults and what to look for.

Signs of a cult.

1. They replace Christ --- Vicar of Christ
2. cult teachers will proclaim a "gospel message" that is ultimately is a message of works-centered salvation, in sharpest contrast to the Good News of saving grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). They'll preach "another gospel."
3. the revealed spiritual nature of the work of the cult claims to be, but actually is not, inspired by God the Spirit. Instead, a chilling reference is made to spiritual entities who lend tremendous spiritual power to their natural human puppets to preach deceptive gospels. They'll be empowered by "another spirit." This is the work of demonic agents in allegiance with Satan, the opposer of God throughout history.
4. Has a leader that is revered by cult members.
5. The leader claims special authority
6. Divine Revelation claimed by the leader which is non-verifiable.
7. Usually changes and/or evolves over time.
8. Intolerant – members cannot challenge or even question cult doctrine or decisions made by cult leadership.
9. Overrriding authority (i.e. correcting, amending or even replacing the Bible) attributed to the special divine revelation.
10. Denial of the authority and completeness of Scripture
11. Signs, signals or other means of identification and/or recognition
12. Dressing differently, sometimes in special uniforms or costumes.

How many of those can be applied to the RCC?

[CynicalBear]

Couldn’t do it ey narses! Your posts include such depth of study, (s) Look at those statues and understand that they are idols which Catholics would fear to damage let alone destroy.

[CynicalBear]

Yep I do, and after more study I am convinced that Catholics make statues idols. Am I clear on that?

[narses]

[D-fendr]

What makes an idol an idol?

[annalex]

the fantasy that holding Scripture as supreme as the wholly inspired word of God fosters moral laxity Not thus put; however, we have seen on this thread, for example a quote from my favorite pillar of morality, Luther, how polygamy cannot be denied based on the scripture alone. When Sola Scriptura means "holding Scripture as supreme", that is correct and wholly Catholic doctrine. When it is done in contradiction with the consensus of the fathers of the Church results like this occur. That is the infection, as opposed to the healthy love and respect for the Holy Scripture.

history of evangelical faith has been toward holiness

Please. You started by desecrating churches and monasteries. What holiness? The Puritans were, perhaps, a misguided attempt, yes -- that was, what, 350 years ago? Protestantism I know today teaches self-interpretation of scripture, considers the Western prosperity a good environment for the growth in spirit, and laughs at devotions of self denial. Where do you see Protestants fasting? Doing penance? Is Joel God-gave-me-a-garage-and-a-swimming-pool Osteen Protestant? Where are your celibate men or women? You do tithe and evangelize, -- often against Catholics or Orthodox who could teach you a thing or to about the Holy Gospel, but at times, yes, you do evangelize the unchurched and at times you risk your lives. But as I strain, I cannot call that "trajectory toward holiness". You do the bare minimum of works that faith requires, which is not surprising since to you, you are all saved anyway.

[annalex]

Isn’t it interesting that when God blessed people in the Old Testament they became wealthy

And in the New Testament -- just the opposite. Interesting indeed.

[narses]

Ding dongs who believe nutcase stuff need help and prayers. Sadly they often get neither.

[annalex]

Good, perfectly Catholic quote.

[D-fendr]

Though parts of the list are silly - sign of the cross for example and I would look for a better list; I think your “cult” qualifies on at least numbers 5-9. Possibly #1.