Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
I can't really parse this, but I surely took no offense. Did my last couple of post explain it to you or do you still perceive a problem of communication? In short:
1. Baptism is a sacrament that saves (removes past sin) by its own work. Since there is but one Church, there is but one Baptism, the Catholic one. Excepting wholly irregular baptisms by fringe Protestant groups, or "baptisms" not meant to bring a person to Christ at all, and of course excepting pre-Christian ablutions, including St. John's, every one today who gets baptized is a born-again new Catholic creature, regardless of his own theories.
2. When Protestants speak of "born again" they mean by it a certain faith experience. This is where the misunderstanding is. If a Protestant is validly baptized, he is, in the eye of God, a Catholic faithful. If he is invalidly baptized, for example, "baptized" a second time, or not using the proper Trinitarian formula, or not in water, etc. -- but has a faith experience which he likes to describe as "born again" then he is not Catholic and likely is under a lure. Without an examination of his soul it is impossible to tell if his experience is good for his faith or bad for his faith.
3. People do not get "saved" once and for all. They live their entire life and in the end they are judged. The duration of their life is preparation for that moment. If they use their life so that they learn to imitate Christ and carry their own cross, they will be saved and will be Catholic in heaven, and will have life everlasting. Otherwise, they cannot be saved. Protestant theological fantasies are nothing but an obstacle in this life journey. For example, if one is baptized validly, but regards it as "a denial of Rome's baptism", well, then his state of grace will last for about five minutes, and then he is lapsed and needs a Catholic conversion, which will use necessary sacraments to put him back in the state of of grace, and we all pray for him and sorrow for him till such time.
Catholics seem to have a problem with those verses no matter how they translate their meaning don’t they. We can agree to disagree for various reasons as to the meaning regarding authority but Catholics still then have a problem in that Jesus clearly says He is in the midst of them. Don’t Catholics go a building to know that Jesus is with them?
>> Because the scripture says "επισκοπους". That is "bishops". "Elders" is your fake translation<<
Not from what I can find at least not in the meaning and intent you seem to be inferring.
The word used there is presbuteros Strong’s Greek
Original Word: πρεσβύτερος, α, ον
Transliteration: presbuteros
Phonetic Spelling: (pres-boo'-ter-os)
Short Definition: elder
Definition: elder, usually used as subst.; an elder, a member of the Sanhedrin, an elder of
a Christian assembly.
4245 presbýteros – properly, a mature man having seasoned judgment (experience); an elder.
The NT specifies elders are men. (The feminine singular, presbytera, never occurs in the Bible.)
http://biblesuite.com/greek/4245.htm
>> King James edition calls them "overseers" in that verse.<<
Oh really?
Acts 20:17 (KJV) And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
In fact, out of the 22 versions of the Bible that I looked at only the Douay-Rheims Bible translates it differently (surprise) and it translates it “ancients”.
The word for bishop is only used 3 times in scripture. The word is (ἐπίσκοπον) episkopon and here is it’s translation.
Strongs
episkopos: a superintendent, an overseer
Original Word: ἐπίσκοπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: episkopos
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-is'-kop-os)
Short Definition: overseer, supervisor, ruler
Definition: (used as an official title in civil life), overseer, supervisor, ruler, especially
used with reference to the supervising function exercised by an elder or presbyter of a church or congregation.
Now isn’t that interesting. You said “episkopos” was used in the scripture I used to say it meant elder. It wasn’t. The word used was “presbýteros” which even the Catholic bible says means ancient while all other 21 versions translate it elders as does Strongs, Thayers, NASEC, and Englishman’s.
I can easily see why you only posted the Greek text to try to impress.
Now you can see why my moniker is CynicalBear. I don’t take what people say without checking.
BTW You may not care what I think but don’t try to then come back and try to snow me.
They might also be interested in 4542
“BTW You may not care what I think but don’t try to then come back and try to snow me.”
Like you did when you claimed that you never said the following?
“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”
“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”
And yet...
Hebrews chapter 11:39-40
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
I guess these folks being spoken of here will get BAPTISED later...
Speaking of ignoraNT REMARKS...
Interesting...
Christ is with us all the time. With you, too. He is, you know, omnipresent God. We go to the Eucharist to eat His body; that is a higher union that otherwise, but He is with you and me indeed, at all times. Don't try to hide.
The word used there is presbuteros
Not in Acts 20:28; did you forget which verse we are discussing?
Verse 17: μετεκαλεσατο τους πρεσβυτερους [presbyters] της εκκλησιαςVerse 17 describes everyone with some status in the local church -- it described all priests, or in KJV parlance, "elders". Verse 28 addresses specifically bishops, or in KJV parlance, "overseers". If you translation translates both as "elder", get a true translation and throw that garbage away.Verse 28: υμας το πνευμα το αγιον εθετο επισκοπους [episcopes]
It helps to understand the nature of the argument if you wish to participate in it. It also helps to read from a decent translation if you don't read the original.
Interesting...
26th of June she came to the City Hall in the Italian city of Siena, to be blessed in Church by Archbishop Antonio Buoncristiani.
The Muslim version of Catholic Mary, with verses from the Koran, in the Italian city of Siena.
This is the “Virgin Mary’s face”, in Arabic. The title is from the 19th chapter of the Koran, which is dedicated to the Madonna. In her crown, an Arab crescent, the symbol of Islam, is placed on one side of the cross. The Star of David, the symbol of Judaism, is on the other side.
The Italian artist Alì Hassoun, (46) was born in Lebanon, but moved to Italy in 1982, where he gained citizenship.
Banner to be blessed in Church
The banner was presented at City Hall of Siena on June 26, more than six months after its design was commissioned by the local administration.
http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/category/vatican-and-islam/
It makes no sense and serves no purpose to baptize a saint who is in heaven already.
Saints Intercede for us.
Once you understand this it really does not matter how it’s worded since God knows our hearts
From Scripturecatholic.com...
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (”sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.
1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.
No question. They do. Did you mean to address someone who might not agree?
Not at all, I was posting in support of your post. Sadly pearls before swine, at least in most cases here.
“He certainly added that he doesn’t condemn people if they want to do these things, ...”
Odd, these sound like condemnations to me, not to you?
“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”
“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”
With? With?
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Paul says, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” Galatians 2:20
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The RCC evidently doesn’t teach what scripture clearly says.
>> Not in Acts 20:28; did you forget which verse we are discussing?<<
Actually I was referencing Acts 20:17 in my first post and each subsequent post. Paul called the elders. Elders are responsible for overseeing what is going on in each church. It’s the “ancients” if you will that are in each church still today in Protestant churches that I have ever been in or heard of. You are correct that overseer was used in verse 28 but still no indication that they were any part of any larger organization.
“The RCC evidently doesn’t teach what scripture clearly says.”
In your odd opinion. But then your odd opinions include the following, right?
“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”
“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”
But none of this is secret. Anyone can do as you have, the question is why they don't. The materials are free online and available to all.
Nevertheless, thanks for the research and post.
Acts 16:29-31 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Getting saved is simple and staying saved is even easier.
The Catholic church makes salvation waaayyyy too complicated.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.