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To: EnglishCon

The command is to not bow.

If someone bows, they are bowing.

I am making no judgment on motive or intent, I’m strictly going by actions which can be seen.

If God says, *Do not bow* and someone bows, that is disobeying, no matter what’s going through their mind.

It’s no different than stealing or lying. Stealing is taking something that does not belong to you. End of story. If I hear someone lie, I can determine that (provided I know the truth, like when my kids would try to pull that), I can make that determination.

If God had simply *Do not worship* graven images, then Catholics could argue the case that they weren’t worshiping it because nobody knows the intent of the heart, and they would have a valid point. But since God said *Do not bow*, there’s far less wiggle room to deny it when you see someone bowing.


295 posted on 02/05/2012 2:47:57 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Nay, intent is all.

I go into church. Kneel and cross myself at the first glimpse of the altar. Am I worshipping a block of stone and some cloth?

No.

I am simply being respectful to it, the altar is where the host is. It is like taking your hat off when you step through the door of a home. Simple respect.
Do a fair amount of work with Japanese too. When I bow am I worshipping them as a god? Or simply being polite?
Really hope it is not the worship one, the Japanese are arrogant enough!

I will and frequently do give the statue of our church’s patron saint a nod and a sketchy salute as I leave mass. A nod is technically a small bow - am I committing idolatry or being respectful.
Should we two meet in the street, I would probably raise my hat and nod to you (ok, old fashioned but how I was raised). Would that make you a god?

Intent is all.

I’d be the last person to deny that there are Catholics who basically worship the Virgin or various saints. They are going to get a nasty shock down the line. That breaks the FIRST commandment. It be first for a reason.

Yet though our First commandment states: “You shall have no other gods before me,” there is nothing about graven images. (We sort of work more from Deuteronomy than Exodus) Our second is your third. We lose the graven image commandment completely and double down on the coveting one. Catholic church is odd like that - figure it was a way to prevent robbery of the church.

We are constantly told in Mass that the figure is not the reality. The statue is not the saint, the cross is not Jesus. Get tired of hearing it sometimes, to be honest, I am not dumb. But it must be repeated, because it is not in our commandments!

Yet people err. Our religion was designed for illiterate peasants, a little like the teachings of our saviour, which were presented as songs or stories or pictures in glass.
Yours was created after literacy became more widespread, when people could read the word for themselves. Makes a huge difference.

Me, I like the second commandment as the Protestants lay it out. It is right there - the image is not the thing, so don’t go worshipping it. Unarguable. And it combines 9 and 10 into a neat bundle.

Just not Catholic cannon.


297 posted on 02/05/2012 4:45:00 PM PST by EnglishCon
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