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To: metmom; Jvette; smvoice; boatbums; TexConfederate1861; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; ...

One only needs to look at what the liberals teach in schools about history to understand how important it is to rely on what was written when things first happened rather than what gets told orally over the centuries. The same people who would condemn liberals for not upholding the original intent of the founders of this country think nothing of placing their eternal future on the accuracy of word of mouth story telling.


2,973 posted on 11/20/2011 6:28:50 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Moses wrote the Torah, which are the first five books of the OT. Was he alive and present at all the events which happened?

He wrote down what had been passed on orally.

We can trust though that God did not allow him to write anything which was errant from the truth.

We do not have the original writings of the NT, so we can conclude and trust that what is written there contains oral teachings as well as what was copied of the originals.

Furthermore, we can trust that the Holy Spirit led the Church to know what was Scriptural and preserve it for us.

Not so that we can READ what is written, but that we may HEAR and obey.

This is not to say that reading Scripture is not profitable for all the things Paul says in his letter to Timothy, but the Christian does not need to read Scripture to have salvation in Christ.


2,983 posted on 11/20/2011 10:00:57 AM PST by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear

CB:

It warms my heart (NOT) that you think that in your wisdom that you know more than the Fathers of the Church, who suffered persecution under the Romans, etc. There were REASONS that things were not written down, because Christians were afraid of the information falling into Roman hands.
Obviously the Fathers of the Church didn’t see things your way.


2,984 posted on 11/20/2011 10:02:35 AM PST by TexConfederate1861 (Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy.)
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To: CynicalBear

Reply of Patriarch Jeremiah to the Lutheran Theologians
(Concerning Traditions of the Church)

Therefore, brethren, let us stand on the rock of faith and on the tradition of the Church, and not remove the boundaries which our Holy Fathers have set. Thus, we will not give the opportunity to those who wish to innovate and destroy the edifice of the holy, catholic and apostolic Church of God. For if permission is granted to everyone who wants it, little by little the whole body of the Church will be destroyed. Do not, brethren, do not, oh Christ-loving children of the Church of God; rather let us worship and adore the founder and creator, God, who due to His nature alone is to be worshipped. Let us venerate the Holy Theotokos not as God, but as the Mother of God, according to the flesh. And let us also venerate the saints as the chosen friends of God who have greater access to Him [God]. For if men venerate mortal kinds who frequently are impious as well as sinners, also rulers and others, and according to the Divine Apostle: “Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient” [Tit 3:1], “pay all of them their dues,” etc. [Rom 13:7], how much more is it necessary to worship the King of Kings who alone is master over nature and also over the passions of His servants and kings? David, also, in Ps 44 says: “Thou didst make [me] them head of nations” [17:43; cf. Ps 18:43 RSV]. They [the saints] were given power over demons and sicknesses, and they shall reign together with Christ. Even their shadow alone drove away demons and sicknesses [cf. Acts 5:l5-16]. Therefore, we should not consider the icon weaker and less honored than the shadow. For [the icon] truly is a sketch of the original. Brethren, the Christian is a person of faith. He who comes in faith gains much. But he who separates himself [from faith] is like a raging sea churned by the wind and blown about and who will receive nothing. All the saints by faith have pleased God: they who confirm it [faith] and prove it to everyone by good works.


2,990 posted on 11/20/2011 10:17:34 AM PST by TexConfederate1861 (Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy.)
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To: CynicalBear

****The same people who would condemn liberals for not upholding the original intent of the founders of this country think nothing of placing their eternal future on the accuracy of word of mouth story telling.****

It is a good analogy, but you come to the wrong conclusion.

The founding fathers left us much that explains how and why they came to the list of rights and rules they formulated and codified within the Constitution.

It is the same with the Church and the early fathers who very soon into the second century began to teach what THEY had learned from the Apostles and how and why such things were written.

It was after nearly three centuries before the first attempt to codify the canon of Scripture occurred.

Do you imagine when the bishops came together with the intent to determine canon, they prayed for the guidance of the Holy Spirit? And perhaps, there was discussion which included some of the writings of those early Christian leaders and how what they said could be used as a benchmark for what was truly inspired Scripture and what was not?

It is ridiculous to suppose that they just came together and went through each of the thousands of writings and said, yes to this one and no to that one. There must have been some criteria which set apart those FEW which were actually chosen from the rest.


3,027 posted on 11/20/2011 2:46:26 PM PST by Jvette
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