Posted on 10/28/2011 6:59:29 AM PDT by markomalley
Since we all know they didn't have cameras back then, how do you think the disciples knew Moses and Elijah were the ones standing with Jesus?
And on a related note, I believe that we will ALSO have a way of "knowing" and recognizing each other in Heaven - and it won't be by name tags. I also believe that we will not be in new bodies that show the age at which we died. Just as babies who die or young children, I don't think they will be in that same age group for eternity nor those who die as elderly. We WILL be resurrected, but we will have bodies different than our earthly ones. Your thoughts?
***I think it’s in order not to have to walk back a post with other trying to harmonize in, not thinking it through or thinking it’s not important. ***
Whatever the reason, it is a core Christian belief, that the body is resurrected and rather than admit that they have no explanation for how it is that Moses appears with Jesus at the Transfiguration, the very heart of the doctrine of the resurrection of the body is twisted and pulled about like taffy to conform to the twisted belief in Sola Scriptura.
Well, remember when that happened it was BEFORE Jesus was buried and he led the souls that were in Paradise into Heaven, once he had opened the gates to it. So Moses must have been in Paradise, not Heaven, and it was both his soul and a "type" of body that he along with Elijah had when they appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. As the story of the rich man and Lazarus says, they both had some kind of body because the rich man was in torments begging Abraham to let Lazarus dip his "finger" into water to cool his thirst. These people were said to see, hear, feel, think, etc., all the things just a spirit could not experience. Why wouldn't there be a sort of "temporary" body given to those who die before the time when the resurrections happen at the end? I'm just asking for discussion here, not thinking up some kind of new "heresy". :)
***how do you think the disciples knew Moses and Elijah were the ones standing with Jesus? ***
It is a good question, as I don’t know if there were likenesses of them that the Apostles would have recognized.
All three accounts are a little different, with two saying that Jesus was transfigured before them and then the two men appear. The other says they were heavy with sleep and almost sounds as if they were awakened by the three men talking.
It is a curious event to me and has been for awhile as I wondered how it is that Moses was there if he was not in heaven in the same way as Elijah is.
You and I have spoken before of how we will know each other and how will see each other in heaven.
Again, I believe we will see each and know each other as God does.
I have no doubt it will be beyond anything we can imagine in this life.
Jvette: He gave them authority so that we can trust in them in the same way we can trust in Jesus.
Authority is one thing. Trusting them in the same way we trust Jesus is another.
I trust Jesus for my salvation. You can't really be saying that we trust some selected group of "insiders" for that as well, can you? In light of the power to retain or remit sins that Catholicism teaches, though, I have to wonder.
What is ironic is that while you are suggesting we can trust the magisterium as we trust Jesus, non-Catholics are roundly criticized for following the teachings and doctrines of Paul, replacing Christ with Paul, and yet here you state that that's what Catholics do by replacing Christ with more than one man, a committee of men.
How does this work?
You most certainly have my permission, Tex. All I pray is that God’s Truth will prevail. That’s all any of us should require.
Regards,
smvoice
***Well, remember when that happened it was BEFORE Jesus was buried and he led the souls that were in Paradise into Heaven***
Which is why I believe that Moses was taken up after his death, most likely when Satan and the Angel Michael fought over his body.
It is just speculation on my part and not a belief that I learned from the Church but one I have come to on my own.
As for what we will be like after the resurrection, I don’t know. Jesus ate breakfast with the Apostles after His resurrection.
So when Scripture says there will be no hunger, I don’t know if that means we will never eat or that food will be so plentiful that we will never hunger.
There is much we don’t know, wouldn’t you say?
You say you were once a Southern Baptist? I wonder, what do you define as "basic tenets of the Faith"?
***What is ironic is that while you are suggesting we can trust the magisterium as we trust Jesus,***
We do not trust them for salvation, only Jesus has made that possible for anyone.
By trust, we can know that what they teach as true is indeed true. The Holy Spirit working through them and in us at the behest of the Father and Jesus is the basis for that trust.
***non-Catholics are roundly criticized for following the teachings and doctrines of Paul,***
I have not done that, nor would I. Paul’s teachings and doctrines are the same as those of Jesus, but we differ some in the way we interpret Paul.
***replacing Christ with Paul, and yet here you state that that’s what Catholics do by replacing Christ with more than one man, a committee of men.***
We do not replace Christ with a committee of men. We trust that Jesus has left us an authority to sift through all the “theologies” and “thoughts” of men and that the Holy Spirit guides them to teach only truth.
It cannot be disputed that things(heresies) have arisen since the writing of Scripture and without a trustworthy authority to proclaim what is truth, then we are tossed about by all manner of crazy and heretical doctrines.
I have a deep regard for Protestants who repectfully disagree with the Catholic faith and the magisterium. I have no use for those who would disparage and ridicule and declare it satanic, all the while claiming THEY are being guided by the Holy Spirit and therefore, have the authority to interpret Scripture.
If you or any other protestant want to discuss the different aspects of our faith respectfully, I will gladly do so. I also will not disparage what you believe, but I am no saint and will sometimes let my frustration get the best of me.
Have YOU read Foxe's Book of Martyrs? You call it a "Protestant classic", but do you realize many of the Roman Catholics on this forum have discredited that book because it also tells of those believers made martyrs BY Roman Catholics? Maybe it would be beneficial for you to read it, in fact, it is online. You can read it from the link http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/foxs-book-of-martyrs/:
John Fox's famous book detailing the lives, sufferings and triumphant deaths of the early Christian and the Protestant Martyrs.
Edited by William Byron Forbush This is a book that will never die -- one of the great English classics. . . . Reprinted here in its most complete form, it brings to life the days when "a noble army, men and boys, the matron and the maid," "climbed the steep ascent of heaven, 'mid peril, toil, and pain." "After the Bible itself, no book so profoundly influenced early Protestant sentiment as the Book of Martyrs. Even in our time it is still a living force. It is more than a record of persecution. It is an arsenal of controversy, a storehouse of romance, as well as a source of edification."
Fox's Book of Martyrs is in the public domain and may be freely used and distributed.
I have and have read Foxe’s book. It can be purchased for a few dollars. It should be part of any history collection of the Reformation.
I have read it many times. You must remember I am Eastern Orthodox Catholic, not Roman.
I believe Moses was in the same place as Abraham AND Elijah, and since the time of the Transfiguration was BEFORE Jesus removed the wall that was between us and Almighty God, preventing human presence in God's Heaven, they were in the place Jesus referred to as "Paradise". But since Elijah was not already dead when he was taken up to God, what kind of body he has right now is not known. Those people that were raised from the grave at the crucifixtion, are not spoken of again as far as I know, so they either eventually died again, were buried and await the resurrection or something else. Another poser, I guess.
I don't know HOW we will recognize each other but, I agree, we certainly WILL. Perhaps that same kind of spiritual recognition was gifted to the Apostles so that they "knew" they were seeing Moses and Elijah with Jesus. Jesus, too, was in his "glorified" state with them, and it gave them a foretaste of eternity with the Lord. I believe that when the "resurrection" of the dead in Christ, as well as those who are damned, happens the body that is formed has the capability to "exist" in eternity - both the saved and the condemned. Hell is spoken of as a place "where the worm dieth not" as well as eternal torment and suffering. I think this is not just a spiritual experience. So, just as our current human bodies are not made to last forever, our resurrected ones will be. I know the doctrine of the final resurrection is a dearly held doctrine of the Christian faith, but our human understanding of exactly how it will all happen is one part a few Scriptural references and the rest conjecture and philosophizing. Regardless, we know we will ALL be changed, in a moment, in a "twinkling of the eye". Even those whose bodies have long past disintegrated and whose dust has scattered to the winds, will, by the power of God, STILL be resurrected.
No doubt, however our Lord does it, it will be unimaginable for the finite minds we have right now to comprehend. But, for now, as the Creed says, I look forward to the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. And as Paul said, if there be no resurrection, then Christ is not raised, and if Christ be not raised we are dead in our sins and our faith is in vain. But now IS Christ risen and so will we to enjoy his presence forever! Amen.
There will be the “Marriage Feast of the Lamb”, right? And what happens at feasts? I sure HOPE we can enjoy food. I don’t believe, of course, that we will HAVE to eat to stay alive, but it would be awesome if we will still be able to have the food we love without getting fat or sick! :o)
But being in the presence of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, would be all I will desire, and it will be more than we could ever hope or think.
The same thing with the phrase, one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. Some believe that is speaking of the universal, spiritual Body of Christ, but others believe it speaks of THE Catholic Church, which excludes any other believers in Christ that aren't members of the institutional Roman Catholic Church.
The phrase, We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. Some believe that it speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit that happens as a result of confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus and believing in our heart God raised him from the dead. Yet others say it speaks of the sacrament of water baptism and nobody can be saved until they have themselves water baptized. Some think tiny babies can have this baptism, but others believe faith must come first then the act of water baptism as an outward testimony of the act of receiving Christ as Savior.
But I'm glad you posted this and you may want to draw on your memories of being in the Southern Baptist Church. Is there anything in these creeds that "they" did not teach and preach as well? Did what they believe concur with Holy Scripture? Can you remember anything outlandish that they taught that goes against the tenets of these creeds? When I think back on what I learned as a Roman Catholic, I can honestly say I repeated those words hundreds of times, if not thousands, but I didn't really let them reach my heart and grasp their real meaning until I was shown Scripture in a little Southern Baptist Sunday school room. What matters above all labels, is what we believe about what God has revealed to us. Saying words counts as nothing with him if they don't echo in our hearts as well. I just realized how late it is, so I'm signing off soon. Hope you have a good night.
The word trust is used much in our day...might be good for some to see exactly what it means to put trust in men on equal par with trusting Christ.
Hello!!
Nobody ever said anything but that.
Every time we say that, some Catholic (present company obviously excluded) comes along and twists it and accuses us non-Catholics of saying that only Scripture contains all truth period and attacks us for doing something not that we did but rather what they made up and accused us of instead.
Perhaps you ought to stop taking at face value what other Catholics state ABOUT us and read what we ourselves say. You've always been reasonable on these threads. Do us that courtesy as well.
That said, as for addressing anything outside of Scripture, when making the claim about the truth of something not specifically addressed by Scripture, that is where EVERYTHING that is considered must be evaluated in light of the word of God.
The recognition that there can be truth found outside of Scripture does not give license to anyone to make stuff up and declare it as truth simply because it isn't specifically addressed in Scripture. It MUST line up with Scripture to be given any serious consideration.
Our *rock* is Jesus.
Even with looking at the Greek and Hebrew for clarification in the translation of a word, without the leading and enlightening of the Holy Spirit, the whole of Scripture itself is meaningless to the natural man, especially the message of the cross. That's what can't be understood without the enlightening of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 1:18-25 18For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 6Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But, as it is written,
"What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"
10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a persons thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
Just another confirmation that the Reformation is a very pale imitation of the Truth. Thanks.
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