Posted on 10/28/2011 6:59:29 AM PDT by markomalley
October 31 is only three days away. For Protestants, it is Reformation Day, the date in 1517 on which Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to that famous door in Wittenberg, Germany. Since I returned to the Catholic Church in April 2007, each year the commemoration has become a time of reflection about my own journey and the puzzles that led me back to the Church of my youth.
One of those puzzles was the relationship between the Church, Tradition, and the canon of Scripture. As a Protestant, I claimed to reject the normative role that Tradition plays in the development of Christian doctrine. But at times I seemed to rely on it. For example, on the content of the biblical canon – whether the Old Testament includes the deuterocanonical books (or “Apocrypha”), as the Catholic Church holds and Protestantism rejects. I would appeal to the exclusion of these books as canonical by the Jewish Council of Jamnia (A.D. 90-100) as well as doubts about those books raised by St. Jerome, translator of the Latin Vulgate, and a few other Church Fathers.
My reasoning, however, was extra-biblical. For it appealed to an authoritative leadership that has the power to recognize and certify books as canonical that were subsequently recognized as such by certain Fathers embedded in a tradition that, as a Protestant, I thought more authoritative than the tradition that certified what has come to be known as the Catholic canon. This latter tradition, rejected by Protestants, includes St. Augustine as well as the Council of Hippo (A.D. 393), the Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397), the Fourth Council of Carthage (A.D. 419), and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1441).
But if, according to my Protestant self, a Jewish council and a few Church Fathers are the grounds on which I am justified in saying what is the proper scope of the Old Testament canon, then what of New Testament canonicity? So, ironically, given my Protestant understanding of ecclesiology, then the sort of authority and tradition that apparently provided me warrant to exclude the deuterocanonical books from Scripture – binding magisterial authority with historical continuity – is missing from the Church during the development of New Testament canonicity.
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, maintains that this magisterial authority was in fact present in the early Church and thus gave its leadership the power to recognize and fix the New Testament canon. So, ironically, the Protestant case for a deuterocanonical-absent Old Testament canon depends on Catholic intuitions about a tradition of magisterial authority.
This led to two other tensions. First, in defense of the Protestant Old Testament canon, I argued, as noted above, that although some of the Church’s leading theologians and several regional councils accepted what is known today as the Catholic canon, others disagreed and embraced what is known today as the Protestant canon. It soon became clear to me that this did not help my case, since by employing this argumentative strategy, I conceded the central point of Catholicism: the Church is logically prior to the Scriptures. That is, if the Church, until the Council of Florence’s ecumenical declaration in 1441, can live with a certain degree of ambiguity about the content of the Old Testament canon, that means that sola scriptura was never a fundamental principle of authentic Christianity.
After all, if Scripture alone applies to the Bible as a whole, then we cannot know to which particular collection of books this principle applies until the Bible’s content is settled. Thus, to concede an officially unsettled canon for Christianity’s first fifteen centuries seems to make the Catholic argument that sola scriptura was a sixteenth-century invention and, therefore, not an essential Christian doctrine.
Second, because the list of canonical books is itself not found in Scripture – as one can find the Ten Commandments or the names of Christ’s apostles – any such list, whether Protestant or Catholic, would be an item of extra-biblical theological knowledge. Take, for example, a portion of the revised and expanded Evangelical Theological Society statement of faith suggested (and eventually rejected by the membership) by two ETS members following my return to the Catholic Church. It states that, “this written word of God consists of the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments and is the supreme authority in all matters of belief and behavior.”
But the belief that the Bible consists only of sixty-six books is not a claim of Scripture, since one cannot find the list in it, but a claim about Scripture as a whole. That is, the whole has a property – i.e., “consisting of sixty-six books,” – that is not found in any of the parts. In other words, if the sixty-six books are the supreme authority on matters of belief, and the number of books is a belief, and one cannot find that belief in any of the books, then the belief that Scripture consists of sixty-six particular books is an extra-biblical belief, an item of theological knowledge that is prima facie non-biblical.
For the Catholic, this is not a problem, since the Bible is the book of the Church, and thus there is an organic unity between the fixing of the canon and the development of doctrine and Christian practice.
Although I am forever indebted to my Evangelical brethren for instilling and nurturing in me a deep love of Scripture, it was that love that eventually led me to the Church that had the authority to distinguish Scripture from other things.
God will not accept us into heaven unless we do appear to be perfect...That's why if you are counting on what you can do to get there it will never be good enough...
If Jesus didn't pay the whole price for you, you are sunk...He paid the entire price for me...
Well, let’s take a real close look.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected (teteleiōken) for ever them that are sanctified.
Teteleiōken – [http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5046]
brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature
Latin Vulgate
10:14 una enim oblatione consummavit in sempiternum sanctificatos
King James Version
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
American Standard Version
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Darby's English Translation
10:14 For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified.
Douay Rheims
10:14 For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Noah Webster Bible
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
World English Bible
10:14 For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified.
Young's Literal Translation
10:14 for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;
Seriously? Are you seriously accusing her off “willfully” committing sin? Making spurious accusations like that should get you banned from this forum or ignored at best. I’m rather ashamed to have engaged you in what I thought was intelligent debate. I'm disgusted.
Judith Anne: how, exactly, does my calling into question the papacy assert that I consider myself to be "identical to Jesus, perfect in every way"? Did I say that I was perfect? I have never asserted my perfection, because I KNOW I'm not; but I am saved by Christ's blood. But honestly, how absolutely holier than thou are YOU to make such a specious claim!
And, by the way, Judith Anne, I'm not claiming to be an authority to you or anyone else. I do have the ability to read, however. All I do is point out the obvious.
But I do thank you for showing such fruits as you have done.
Hoss
You know for a fact that that's the case??????
I don't believe you. Nobody can know that for a fact. Unless you're omniscient, which I'm pretty sure you aren't, you cannot monitor anyone 24/7 nor discern their hearts.
Just give us all a break, o perfected one. All of us, perfected or not, commit many sins even after "perfection" supposedly occurs. I would venture to proclaim that a good number of those are not accidental, but deliberate. That's willfully committing sin. Knowing something is a sin, and doing it anyway, is willfull sinning. Think of the seven deadly sins, especially pride. Few of you separated brethren can surrender that. I've seen very little humility, and certainly no turning of the cheek.
I've seen metmom post with laudable humility a few times, but never you, CB. Boatbums has shown humility as well. I myself am too sinful to be humble, but CB, youclaim perfection. That's just funny.
God proclaims me saved.
And because of that I don't need your help.
Or want it as I am free in Christ and have no desire to go back into the bondage of works and the flesh.
Galatians 5:1-6 1For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. 2Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
And you know that how? Did you ask people? Observe them? Did they tell you? Do you have special knowledge of where people ended up for eternity based on their beliefs that the rest of us aren't privy to? Where did you get that information?
Please cite your sources to support your contention.
>>>>>Being a priest never stopped any of them from drinking and socializing.
Yeah, and those hollowed out whited sepulchre Pharisees criticized Jesus for the same thing, I’ve read.
Please provide proof that metmom “willfully” sinned please.
Wrong! Your own personal self-serving interpretation of scripture proclaims you saved.
Nope. That’s between her and God, and none of your business.
We could look at some of her falsehoods, but it isn’t necessary.
So just accept that your Salvation was determined before the beginning of time, that it was fully paid for 2,000 years ago and party on; sex, drugs, rock and roll. Nothing you can do can screw it up.......or you can take what is behind door number 2; the hope of Salvation.
"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;" - Philippians 2:12
Well, that's too bad because a church should be full of redeemed saints who sometimes do slip and fall and sin, but are nevertheless still forgiven and redeemed.
God is not the fickle, capricious God the Catholic church portrays Him as, with us being saved today, damned tomorrow depending.
If your church is full of sinners, then it obviously isn't doing a very good job of spreading the good news.
Perhaps you, like CB, consider yourself identical to Jesus, perfect in every way.
God sees us as perfect in Christ Jesus. That's why, even if judgment is based on works, since we have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, God sees us as He sees Christ.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Romans 4:1-12 1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
9Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
It's because of God's grace that we are perfect and being perfected. We are perfect in our standing before God, even when we aren't perfect in our actions.
Acts 13:22-23 22And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, 'I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.' 23 Of this man’s offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.
Hmmm, wasn't that the same David who committed adultery and had the woman's husband murdered to try to cover?
You can keep your on again, off again salvation. I will continue to trust the One who is faithful to complete the good work He began in me, having adopted me into His family and sealing me with the promised Holy Spirit until the day of my redemption.
What falsehoods are you accusing me of that you didn’t courtesy ping me to tell me you were talking about?
Amen and Amen
Mark, I understand the eye poking that happens on these threads but that has to one of the most egregiously silly statements I've seen in some time and anyone here knows I'm not given to hyperbole and puffery.
Admitting the shortcomings of the AV, those same type of things appear in translations Catholics hold near and dear. If you haven't realized that they certainly have been pointed out on these threads more than once.
NL:So just accept that your Salvation was determined before the beginning of time, that it was fully paid for 2,000 years ago and party on; sex, drugs, rock and roll. Nothing you can do can screw it up.......or you can take what is behind door number 2; the hope of Salvation.
What an appalling ignorance and gross misrepresentation of the Gospel and Christians. It's really too bad that is all you have to try to discredit the Gospel message.
Romans 6 1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
By its very definition all sin is willful and no one, except Jesus and His mother, is without sin. I am a little disgusted that you would suggest otherwise.
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