Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD
Of course, The forces of Satan have compromised individuals within the Church. Even the original 12 Apostles included those who would betray, deny and doubt Jesus whom they knew far more intimately than any person since. But that is precisely why God choose to use a Magisterium enjoined over 2,000 years and not a single individual preacher, rebel, or "believer".
" Why would the Holy Spirit guide those seeking truth from God's word differently than he would "officials" of the church?"
Because of the doctrine of Apostolic succession, that is a special status of those whose ordination is part of a direct line, through the laying on of the hands by those whose ordination is traceable directly to the original Apostles. What they bind on earth is bound in heaven.
"I ask these questions not to trick or harass but simply to challenge the lock-step thinking that has allowed error to slip into Christian doctrine."
The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for. You are justified in asking these questions. I only hope that I am up to the task of answering them.
But the canon of the Bible was decided by the councils of the Catholic Church acting under the direction of the Holy Spirit. That very same organization of men, guided by the very same Holy Spirit is engaged in the defense and interpretation of the Bible under the guise of the Magisterium.
You are too smart and too educated to hide behind the hackneyed old GIFs. Come out into an open and honest discussion of the issues where, even when you are wrong you expand the box.
See missing Apocrypha for more information on what the Catholic Church wanted mankind to believe was the inspired word of God.
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Yes. Luther took books out. You think that’s ok?
The Apocrypha? What do you think I think?
Even changeable clerical celibacy.
I’m asking.
Do you think it’s ok that Luther took books out and made his own bible?
Yet this "doctrine" is not found in Scripture specifically and was invented by the very people who claimed the authority. Though there are claims of direct lines, no unimpeachable evidence exists that was true. In fact, at times there were multiple people claiming to be the Pope. At other times, the one in that position - supposedly the hand-picked successor to Peter - was as unChristian and debauched as any pagan. I seriously doubt a priest would be able to trace his own ordination back to Peter. I fail to see how these instances could be blamed on God's own direction. Yes, the forces of Satan have compromised and deceived many people through the ages, yet the infallibly declared infallible Magesterium was supposed to be the guardian of the Church preventing such a person to have authority over the entire Christian world. Explain why they failed?
That's why I do not accept that the Roman Catholic Church as the one, true ONLY church of Christ. There is way to much negative history to overcome to seriously claim infallibility of the Magesterium. No, rather, I believe God is clear that those who place their trust in Jesus Christ and become his body on earth have the indwelling Holy Spirit within them and that combined with the Holy Scripture are protected in the faith. He leads us into all truth and we cannot and do not need to trust in men who may or may not have that same Spirit within them. High office in an organizational church, we can see, does not guarantee that man is lead by God. Sure it would be wonderful to be able to depend on such Godly men for guidance, but we see what can happen when we abrogate our responsibility to know the things of God. Just like in many other religions, of all kinds, that is a dangerous thing to blindly give up. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Mani, Buddha, Joseph Smith, etc.
The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for. You are justified in asking these questions. I only hope that I am up to the task of answering them.
I agree and I do appreciate your response.
You all need to get together and decide what you think about Martin Luther. One minute you disdain him, and the next minute, he is practically declared divine by your church. Depends on which way you need to use him, I suppose.
We’re together on this. Luther said the Catholics had the REAL Bible. Then he took books out of it to suit his purpose and needs and whims and wishes.
Your opinion simply does not match the facts. I would recommend that you objectively study the subject and abandon those sources who stand to benefit from the destruction of the Church.
Oh, yeah, and Luther added words in to suit his fancy too.
I do a fair amount of that.
And even where I offer insights not commonly known . . . as well as abundant Scriptural and other support—the response is the same from the RC’s.
Soooooooooooo it’s decreasingly worth the bother.
That is because neither I nor the Catholic Church accept the modern doctrine of Scriptural exclusivity; that is the theological construct that all of the Revealed Word is and is only found within the Canon of Scripture and more specifically, within those Pauline letters intended for the Gentiles. It ignores the Word contained within the Apostolic Traditions.
"There is way to much negative history to overcome to seriously claim infallibility of the Magesterium."
Are you ready to similarly condemn the ministry of Jesus based upon the conduct of His Apostles, in which one doubted Him, one denied Him in his moment of need, and one openly betrayed Him?
High office in an organizational church, we can see, does not guarantee that man is lead by God."
Of course it doesn't, but although the Church aspires to perfection, it is comprised of people, burdened by original sin and human weaknesses. That is which is is an institution that moves exceedingly and at times painfully slow and distributes decisions, doctrines and dogma across a Magisterium comprised of over 31,000 current bishops and their successors.
Its just disappointing when you waste your efforts and abilities on style over substance.
I’m more than a bit surprised to read that from you.
It tends to appear that Mad Dawg is the only RC/Ortho I can reliably have a genuine dialogue with of any dependability at all.
God knows I’ve tried many times over the years with most of the rest of the RC’s. At 64 years old . . . I try to hit my head against brick walls far less than I used to.
The other RC’s on FR could go a great deal of the distance toward demonstrating a genuine interest in dialogue if they really wanted to. They NEVER HAVE—certainly not for more than a few posts or a few days—which ever came first, usually.
I’ve just not seen any significant evidence that RC’s on FR want genuine dialogue any more than Jihadi’s do.
RC’s have been trained from birth to
!!!!CONTROL!!!! !!!!CONTROL!!!! !!!!CONTROL!!!!
AND
!!!!DEMAND!!!! !!!!DEMAND!!!! !!!!DEMAND!!!!
Being on the other end of that is not Proddy’s favorite recreation regardless of how much deluded RC’s may think it is.
Perhaps most importantly, RC’s seem to have the DNA
—certainly the ORGANIZATIONAL RELIGIOUS DNA
that tolerates ONLY
NEAR
100% SUBMISSION
OR
NEAR
100% AGREEMENT.
There’s little to no room for dialogue in that.
On top of that, the critical differences tend to have no new material to share between the two camps about them.
On sum, I just can’t make a good case for bothering with even an attempt at dialogue with most RC’s on FR.
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