One God, Three Equal Persons: St. Gregory of Nazianzus {Ecumenical Thread}

EWTN ^ | 357 AD | St. Gregory of Nazianzus

[Cronos]

WHEN did these come into being? They are above all "When." But, if I am to speak with something more of boldness,--when the Father did. And when did the Father come into being. There never was a time when He was not. And the same thing is true of the Son and the Holy Ghost. Ask me again, and again I will answer you, When was the Son begotten? When the Father was not begotten. And when did the Holy Ghost proceed? When the Son was, not proceeding but, begotten--beyond the sphere of time, and above the grasp of reason; although we cannot set forth that which is above time, if we avoid as we desire any expression which conveys the idea of time (Theological Orations III.3).

TO us there is One God, for the Godhead is One, and all that proceedeth from Him is referred to One, though we believe in Three Persons. For one is not more and another less God; nor is One before and another after; nor are They divided in will or parted in power; nor can you find here any of the qualities of divisible things; but the Godhead is, to speak concisely, undivided in separate Persons; and there is one mingling of Light, as it were of three suns joined to each other. When then we look at the Godhead, or the First Cause, or the Monarchia, that which we conceive is One; but when we look at the Persons in Whom the Godhead dwells, and at Those Who timelessly and with equal glory have their Being [in] the First Cause--there are Three Whom we worship (Theological Orations V.14).

THIS, then, is my position with regard to these things, and I hope it may be always my position, and that of whosoever is dear to me; to worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, Three Persons, One Godhead, undivided in honour and glory and substance and kingdom (Theological Orations V.28).

[Cronos]

A well prayed over verse by the great St. Gregory

[Jack Hydrazine]

Nimrod (father), Semiramis (mother aka the comforter), and Tammuz (the son) are the original trinity from which Christianity gets it Trinity.

[Cronos]

Jack: Nimrod (father), Semiramis (mother aka the comforter), and Tammuz (the son) are the original trinity from which Christianity gets it Trinity.

oohkay..

[AnalogReigns]

Thank God for the Fathers. So excellent in Reason, yet wisely accepting of Mystery—all in perfect balance.

Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!

[AnalogReigns]

This is an ecumenical thread, meaning a discussion of doctrines all of one religion (Christianity) accept. NOT a place for non-Christians to argue.

If you knew ANYTHING about the history of the understanding of the holy Trinity, you’d know the discussions of the Christian Fathers had nothing at all to do with “Semiramis” or “Tammuz”...rather, the clear testimony of the sacred Scriptures that the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

[Cronos]

Well, Analog -- I think jack can talk about his beliefs. He's not been antagonistic, just that we disagree. He's told us what he believes in, we can talk about ours and not argue.

The mystery of the Trinity, of the nature of God is a wonderful example of love through the ages, outside of time itself

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***and Tammuz (the son) are the original trinity****

Yet Tammuz (Attis, Osiris, Adonis) gets killed each year on the longest day of the year. that is when the women “weep for tammuz.”

[Jack Hydrazine]

I’m not arguing with you just stating a fact. Go look up the pagan origins of Christianity and you will find some very interesting information.

Christianity is essentially the syncretizing of Judaic and pagan beliefs. Islam is also a sycretizing of Judaic and Arab pagan beliefs. Both Christians and Muslims don’t want to admit that.

All I can say is do your own research.

Has Christianity made the West and the world a better place for deifying a dead Jewish rabbi and following the basic universal core tenets of Jewish beliefs that he followed? Yes!

Everyone needs a rabbi and if Rabbi Joshua (aka Jesus) works for the Christians then so be it.

[rogue yam]

Jack -

It is not a “fact” that Christianity is a lie.

The word “fact” means something else.

[Bailee]

“One God, Three equal Persons”

God is not three people but rather holds Three offices.

He is the Alpha and Omega. He is One the beginning and the end.

Example. I am my Parents SON, My wifes HUSBAND, and my Childrens DAD. 3 offices not 3 people

[sasportas]

Gregory of Nazianzus sets this forth as official terminology:

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, Three Persons, One Godhead, undivided in honour and glory and substance and kingdom (Theological Orations V.28).

However, I don’t see such a statement anywhere in the New Testament. I don’t even see the words “three persons” anywhere. Why would the Bible have to wait some three hundred years for Gregory of Nazianzus to set the record straight? Weren’t the NT writers inspired?

[Jack Hydrazine]

I didn’t say Christianity was a lie. They base most of their beliefs on Torah truths directly or indirectly but there are some pagan beliefs and practices that still linger.

It’s up to Christians to question why they believe and practice what they do and act accordingly to the conviction that God puts in their hearts.

[rogue yam]

You are playing dishonest games with words.

Christianity is either true or else it is “based on pagan beliefs”. It can’t be both and you know it.

Christians believe what we do because we believe that the events described in our holy scriptures are true. That is, we believe they actually happened as described.

Apparently you do not believe this and that is your choice. But why do you come on here, call Christianity a lie, and then deny doing so? What compels you to such deceit?

[Jack Hydrazine]

Go do your research and find out the origins of Christianity.

Are you aware that the early New England colonists such as the Pilgrims (and I think Puritans) did not celebrate Christmas and Easter. Why would they not celebrate such Christian holidays?

Again, all I ask is that you do your own research.

[Bailee]

Maybe Gregory of NaZianzus got it wrong. Why would the Bible need to be set straight in the first place.

Rev 22 18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

[sasportas]

Didn’t Gregory of Nazianzus liken the three “persons” of the Trinity to three men, or three people? Yet he said the Trinity is indivisible. Go figure.

[rogue yam]

Here’s what happened:

You said that it is a “fact” that Christian beliefs are untrue.

I replied that this is not a fact.

You then claimed that you did not state that Christian beliefs are untrue.

I explained that this claim of yours was a lie.

You then changed the subject.

Believe whatever you want to about God, Jacko, but if you claim that Christianity is a lie then I will contradict you since I believe that it is true.

And if you lie to to me about what you have said then I will point out that you are a liar.

The interesting question here is what is it that compels you to come on here and denigrate Christianity and to lie about your having done so? I do not expect we’ll get an answer to this question. I don’t suppose you really know the answer yourself.

[Salvation]

Christ in the New Testament tells the disciples and apostles to go forth to all the world, “baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Is that enough scripture for everyone?

[Salvation]

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[ArrogantBustard]

Arianism, Nestorianism, Modalism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, etc. all had their advocates in the the early years of the Church ... and all were decisively refuted by the early Church.

I believe that Jesus founded a real, visible, organized, authoritative Church because He knows eternally that such ideas as these would appear, and reappear, and need to be refuted.