My point is that people are smearing him-not refuting the statistics. It's like a liberal saying the jobless rate is over 8% and the solution is to spend more money. No one would quibble with the stats. However the solution is all wrong.
Catholics here have admitted the Church has "been weaken". Is anyone going to refute the stats? Yet I don't hear they trying to do anything about it.
Why would I refute the statistics? If they've left the Church, they've left the Church. Why are you looking for a refutation of the numbers? On the other hand It's very instructive to identify the author and what he proposes to fix the problem. To us, at least.
No one would quibble with the stats. However the solution is all wrong.
Exactly what I just said.
Catholics here have admitted the Church has "been weaken". Is anyone going to refute the stats? Yet I don't hear they trying to do anything about it.
Again, why are you looking for us to refute the stats? And what would you have us do?
HarleyD/ Campion/ Lorica:
Actually, as this article notes, none of those who left ever stated they went to Protestantism because they embraced Mainline Protestantism’s Doctrine of Justification, which tends to be Arminian in some cases {Methodist and Anglicans to some degree] or Luthers view or the heretical Calvinist penal substitution system of Justification.
This author’s describtion called eccesial consumerism says it all:
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2011/04/ecclesial-consumerism-redux/
But in some sense, all of those who left are defaco liberals in that they have elevated their own personal tastes to dogma and doctrine. The 81% statistic is striking in that they like a worship service that is more creative or fits their personal tastes. In other words, it is all about them!!
Pope Benedict in his great work “Spirit of the Liturgy [pp. 159-170]” lays out why this whole notion of worshiping as I see fit is actually heretical. Orthodoxy, as he notes actually has its roots in meaning the right way to glorify God, i.e. worship Him. Thus, the Liturgy of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are ultimately right worship of God. Everything else is less than that. How do we glorify God, by praying the Liturgy and living in communion with Christ’s paschal mystery, by participating in his Eucharist a [Thanksgiving to the Father] in which Incarnation leads to Resurrection.
The Pope notes that Liturgical Rite means the practical arrangements made by the community in time and space for the basic type of worship received from God in faith. So what are Rites and where do they come from, the Pope notes [p. 160] that Canon 6 of the Council of Nicea is a good starting point in that it notes “Three Primatial Sees”, Rome, Alexandria and Antioch and then shortly after Nicea in 325, Constantinople emerges as major center of Liturgical life as well.
All of the major Rites grew organically and had some uniformity over time. However, recently, as the Pope Notes, Rite has experienced dissolution and is now replaced by “CREATIVITY” of the community.
Before going into the “CREATIVITY” issue, the Pope makes several major points. First, it is important that the individual Rites have relation to the places “Christianity originated and the place the Apostles preached” [and it ain’t in evangelical protestant America]: they are anchored in the time and place of the event of divine revelation. Thus, the Christian faith can never be separated from the soil of sacred events from the “choice made by God”, who wanted to speak to us and become man in a particular time and place. Second, the Church can’t forsake her roots, she recognizes the true utterances of God in the context of history in time and place to where God ties us, and thus we are all tied together. Thus, Rites are not just products of inculturation, they are forms of Apostolic tradition.
Second, the Rites are not fenced off from each other but enrich each other [Rome and Byzantine had liturgical exchanges in the 1st millennium]. However, as the Pope notes, they elude the control of any individual, local community or regional Church. Unspontaneity is of their essence. In these Rites, the Pope notes, I discover that something is approaching me here that I did not create myself, which ultimately derives from Divine Revelation. As the Pope continues, he beautifully notes that this is the reason the Christian East calls the Liturgy the “Divine Liturgy” which expresses thereby Liturgies independence from human control
As the Pope continues, he points out that even the Pope can’t change the Liturgy by himself he is bound to the Tradition of Faith and that also means the Liturgy. So, Rite as he now more fully defines [p. 166] is the expression that has become form, of eccesiality and of the Church’s identity as a historically transcendent of liturgical prayer and action. Thus, Rite makes concrete Liturgy’s bond with that living subject, which is the Church, who then is characterized by adherence to the form of faith that has developed from Apostolic Tradition The Pope notes that legitimate development can occur but Rite “precludes spontaneous improvisation”.
The Pope then refers to Luther and notes that despite his “radicalization and reversion to Scripture alone”, Luther did not contest the ancient Creeds [which are fixed symbola of the faith expressed in Liturgy] and thus left Protestantism and inner tension that became the fundamental problem of Protestantism. With the move a more rigid sola scriptura and the influence of the various radicalization of the critical methods of scripture study, sola scriptura can’t provide a foundation for the Church and a commonality of faith. Scripture is Scripture only when it lives within the living subject which is the Church.
The Pope then notes in very strong words, that is why it is absurd that a not insignificant number of people today are trying to reconstruct the Liturgy afresh on the basis of sola scriptura. In these reconstructions, they identify Scripture with the prevailing exegetical opinions thus confusing faith with opinion. Liturgy manufactured this way is based on human words and opinions. It is a house built on sand and remains totally empty, however much human artistry adorns it [i.e. popular music, charismatic preaching style, auditorium style worship space with modern technology, etc.]
Only respect for the Liturgies fundamental unspontaneity and pre-existing identity can give us what we hope for: the feast in which the great reality comes to us that we ourselves do not manufacture but receive as gift. This means that “CREATIVITY” cannot be an authentic category for matters Liturgical. In any case, this is a word that developed within a Marxist world view. Creativity means that in a universe that in itself is meaningless and came into existence through blind evolution, man can creatively fashion and a new and better world
Thus the life of Liturgy does not come from what dawns upon the minds of individuals and planning groups. On the contrary, it is God’s descent upon our world, the source of real liberation. The more priests and the faithful humbly surrender themselves to the descent of God, the more “new” the Liturgy will constantly be and the truer and personal it becomes. Yes, the Liturgy becomes personal; true and new not through “tomfoolery and banal experiments with words”, but through the courageous entry into the great reality that through Rite is always ahead of
In closing, Pope Benedict documented this issue years ago and the fact that 81% of the folks who went Protestant went because the worship fits their personal tastes and creativity, etc, is basically heresy. It is all about them and how they “feel”