Posted on 02/12/2011 6:20:06 PM PST by topcat54
Joel McDurmon, hosting today's show for Gary DeMar, exposes End-times Dysfunction (E.D.) for what it is. Joel shares with doomsdayers how they can get relief from their paranoia and troubled souls.
>> “My suggestion is that you don’t cut and paste someone else’s swill unless you can back it up with your own swill.” <<
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What an endearing comment!
Perhaps you can use that same venom when you curse the rocks for failing to hide you.
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What's that supposed to mean? That last trumpet is at the Second Coming, when the saints are raised.
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:52)When do “we” (the saints) get changed? The last trumpet? How many more trumpets are there after the last one?
Matthew 27:52
" ... and the graves of many were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
How about that, a resurrection after the death of Christ on the cross and prior to His burial in the garden. By the methods used to show the rest of the Bestselling Rapture Doctrine, then, it is also clear that a time interval between the bodies of the saints rising and Christ himself rising makes this a separate resurrection. Counting this you have three resurrections, no Rapture required. Two down, and only the Second Coming to go.
Or, are there four as one is clearly and plainly described in Matt 27:52? Then there's those who come to Christ during the tribulation. They don't avoid anything but just get beheaded, that's it, that's all?. They're an exception to the promise that He will spare the Bride the Great Tribulation? Then, it's not really all Christians who are spared suffering and tribulation, even The Great Tribulation or else there's going to be an awful lot of Raptures.
Consistent application of the Bestselling Rapture Doctrine interpretation method demands either two have past and one remains or that there are a total of four resurrections. Or, there are two spoken of and two will occur, one already has and the Second Coming alone remains.
We all err on some points. We should know for sure that we will err if we insist on applying prophecy to and divine details about a topic hidden from even Christ himself. I side with Irenaeus who said that since even the Son wasn't ashamed to ascribe this to the father and say little more, so too should we.
Other than looking at what we think are the signs to remind ourselves that time is short and energize ourselves to spread the Gospel, it's for the Father to know, not even Christ himself. I won't risk going further than Christ himself did, something you have to do if you hop on the Bestselling Rapture Doctrine bandwagon.
Oh, Puleeeese. It's getting deep in here. Have you run out of real material so quickly?
There’s other solid evidence of more direct bearing on this thread. Not sure if I can get the right folks to respond, or not.
Gracious and encouraging Holly Deyo is sadly too busy with higher priorities to bother with that issue. It’s not clear if Jack Van Impe will respond, or not.
Some other scholars have been contacted, will see what they come up with.
It’s interesting, that the other side rants about Darby. Yet, when we have PROVEN that there were numerous mentions of such eschatologies many HUNDREDS of years before Darby . . .even as far as right back to the first 300 years of the church, we still get the same untrue, false, . . . gross distortions of fact about Darby from folks who pretend to be honest Christians.
Amazing.
THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT THE RAPTURE AS OUR BLESSED HOPE.
Perhaps without such a BLESSED HOPE, harsh personal assaults are the most thrilling things they can focus on.
Oh, I knew that was coming. 2 Peter 3:8 Abuse Alert!!
He seems to have determined that the Bible teaches there will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth" for carnal Christians who did not walk the straight and narrow. A sentence they will serve while those on earth experience the Great Tribulation (or before if they die before the Great Tribulation). Those who work to remain on the right path will go straight to ruling with Christ in Heaven as their reward. So, he separates Christians into those who obtain salvation but no rewards, and those who obtain both. C W tripped on something and found Purgatory whether he calls it that or not. Now, if you listen to or read his explanations of it there's little difference other than Chuck will not use that name.
He's already on the outs with some of the people who for over twenty years rolled out the red carpet for him on demand, so adding the word Purgatory to his other departures from the Bestselling Rapture Doctrine would ruin the guy in the eyes of those folks who are already upset with him. He was also in a somewhat public tiff with Hal Lindsey over whether it was legitimate to claim that writings prior to Darby really did apply to the Bestselling Rapture Doctrine but I don't know how that worked out.
Missler is really, really, good at leading people to Christ with a great many of his messages and a couple of his series. Alas, he makes the same mistakes as some others who can't resist applying their own intellect to what we are told by Christ is left to the Father alone. That is the same temptation that draws some others to it, the desire to be like the Father and know, exactly the same sin as Eve.
You said >>Christ’s Bride, the Church,<<
The verse I gave you is:
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Are you saying the church is “new Jerusalem”?
Good of you to recognize his strengths.
He is a bit of a mixed bag.
>> “What’s that supposed to mean? That last trumpet is at the Second Coming, when the saints are raised.” <<
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The “last trump” as stated by Paul is a specific series of bursts on the ram’s horn that are executed at the end of the Feast of Trumpets. If my memory serves, it is nine blasts. This is the feast that prophecies the rapture, which is earlier, and separate from the actual physical entry of Christ on the ground, which is noted by the feast of Tabernacles.
I know that this is more than your denying mind can handle, so I will refrain from sharing any more with your vexatious spirit.
Do try to remember that the first century church celebrated all of the feasts of the Lord because they were necessary to the understanding of the believer.
>>When do “we” (the saints) get changed? The last trumpet? How many more trumpets are there after the last one?<<
If you had gone and read through the site you wouldn’t have asked that question.
http://www.learnthebible.org/the-last-trump.html
Vexatious spirit alert!
I agree.
Read . . .
hmmmmm . . . read . . .
READ?
Oh Dear!
. . . with respect . . .
Naw.
Tooooo mild a term.
Yes, I agree he's a mixed bag in several ways in fact. He does, at least did, apply the same methods consistently and argue with those who want him to apply others or make exceptions. He will pursue almost any theory or conspiracy for at least a while to see if it works out and drop it if he doesn't think so whether it has “legs” with his audience or not. I respect that and I respect the fact that a view he cannot argue against any better than he can argue for his own he will give equal billing. I don't know how much he may have changed his approach since the mid-90s
Regards
I don’t know either.
Have never been a ‘disciple’ and have only irregularly checked in on him.
I appreciate many of his articles and a lot of his research.
I think he’s sincere and authentic, as well.
The writer of that response is headed in the right general direction, but there is some detail missing.
In Paul’s time the term “last trump” had a well known and specific meaning. It came at the closing minutes of the celebration of Trumpets.
>>The writer of that response is headed in the right general direction, but there is some detail missing.<<
Yeah, but the overall thrust of his writing is the difference between the Revelation trumpets and the last trump for the church.
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