Mary Worship? A Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine

Park View ^ | July 2001 | Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)

[BenKenobi]

RR:

Please understand. When Paul talks about the “dead who are asleep”, he’s not talking in English.

He wrote this originally in Greek. The word that he uses in Greek is the same one we use for repose and is rendered into the Latin as Rescquiasit, or rest.

There are different Greek words for ‘asleep’ and ‘rest’. He uses Rest, not asleep.

[Siena Dreaming]

Do you know what it means to be full of grace? That means your will is perfectly conformed to the will of God and there is no sin in you.

It means you are full of God's gift. That's why Colossians says believers have fullness in Christ.

They are blameless in Him as is said many times in the New Testament.

[BenKenobi]

Authors compile. Putting stuff together in a coherent fashion is authorship.

[RobRoy]

Sorry, my use of the word “sleep” is to be brief.

Have you ever been put under for surgery? I have. It is fascinating in what it teaches me about sleep. That is, the complete lack of perception of the passage of time in being put under demonstrates that while I sleep I am, at some level, aware of the passage of time. When I am put under, I am told to breathe regularly and as I inhale, I am suddenly in the recovery room.

I think that is what death is like: You die and then you are suddenly at the judgement. I can’t say for sure, but it’s not important, really. For me it is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. When I get involved in discussions like this post is when people argue that the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin is most definitely 14 and if you don’t agree then you don’t have the truth.

[RobRoy]

>>I’m not mormon, nor have I had any experience with them. But she is our spiritual mother. I am sorry that you find the doctrine revolting, but it is scriptural.<<

Not according to my bible. I think the real danger of your comment is not that you think she is our spiritual mother. Rather, it is that you think we even need one. “God as our father” is a euphemism to explain our relationship in a “now we see darkly, but then clearly” way. There is no sex in eternity. There is no “father and mother”.

[BenKenobi]

Sadly, not the same word in the Greek.

Blameless:

amemptoi

Most highly favoured one/Full of Grace:

kecharitomene

Different words, different meanings.

[BenKenobi]

Christ goes out of his way to say that OUR mother and father and brothers, are those who follow the Lord.

Enough for me.

Apparently scripture is useful when it agrees with you and inconvenient when it does not.

I suppose Theotokos would also trouble you?

[BenKenobi]

So Christ is an it?

[RobRoy]

>>Please understand. When Paul talks about the “dead who are asleep”, he’s not talking in English.<<

Yeah, I don’t like using the word “asleep” but I thought it would make the point without getting into complex details regarding something none of us has complete knowledge of. I make use of the Greek Lexicon when it is really important and we are trying to get to the heart of something relevant.

For my purposes, using the word “sleep” was close enough.

And regarding “rest” vs “sleep”, as I mentioned in a previous post, my thoughts are that the “rest” is more akin to being put under during surgery. That is, you are 100% out and have absolutely no perception of the passage of time - until the resurrection.

[BenKenobi]

It is important when you accuse us of worshipping Mary.

Enough so that you bothered to raise the allegation. Now, when delving into the issue, you back off and say, “it doesn’t matter anymore”.

Disappointing. Lots of heat, little light.

[Claud]

Luke 1:28: “And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”

Many translations have “highly favored one”. VERY bad translation, in my humble opinion, and far from the original Greek.

[RobRoy]

>>Christ goes out of his way to say that OUR mother and father and brothers, are those who follow the Lord.

Enough for me.

Apparently scripture is useful when it agrees with you and inconvenient when it does not.<<

Do you not realize that he was throwing the words back at them and saying “who is my relation is not who is my blood relative, but rather those who follow the Lord.”

After all, if you take his word literally to mean it the way you are attempting, in the context of the sentence, who would be my “father that follows the Lord”?

[Siena Dreaming]

Authors compile. Putting stuff together in a coherent fashion is authorship.

Right...why do I get the feeling I'm back in the 90's hearing old Billy Boy spinning his wheel?

[RobRoy]

>>So Christ is an it?<<

[BenKenobi]

Which is Luther’s argument, word for word.

“trying to get to the heart of something relevant.”

I thought that was what this is about? Unfortunately, beyond one word used twice, there’s nothing to support this view. Protestant bibles can alter the English, but they can’t change the original. All the original says is that Paul said that the dead were resting, and Luther’s opinion has no basis in scripture.

I have been put under, and I don’t think that’s what it’s like at all. I think we are well aware, more aware than we’ve ever been of what is happening and what is going to happen. It’s like the falling away of our binds etc. There have been people who have experienced near death, and their reports have quite a few similarities.

[RobRoy]

>>So Christ is an it?<<
I don’t know what you mean. Are you suggesting that the identity of my earthly father and mother are relevant in eternity? The importance of Mary as Jesus’ mother is relevant only in this life, not in eternity.

[BenKenobi]

Apparently the Bible according to Siena Dreaming is a superior edition.

When does it come out?

[RobRoy]

>>It is important when you accuse us of worshipping Mary.

Enough so that you bothered to raise the allegation. Now, when delving into the issue, you back off and say, “it doesn’t matter anymore”.<<

I’m sorry. That is not what I meant by that statement. It actually matters quite a bit. And I am not accusing anyone specifically of worshiping Mary. However, I have said that one can easily infer, from the actions of some, that they do in fact deify Mary. I’m sure some to actually worship her, but only in the vein of “if it is possible to do, someone has done it” so that is really not germane.

My contention is more with the concept of praying to Mary.

[BenKenobi]

Christ says, that we will neither give or be given in marriage in heaven.

He does not say that we will cease to become men and women. For some of us it means leaving these decrepit bodies behind and getting a new one that works right.

[RobRoy]

>>Luke 1:28: “And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” Many translations have “highly favored one”. VERY bad translation, in my humble opinion, and far from the original Greek.<< Well, the word there is χαριτόω and can be translated 1) to make graceful - charming, lovely, agreeable 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings So I try to be careful, when identifying my core beliefs, in putting too much emphasis on a single scripture, and one that has a "less than precise" meaning within the context.