How The Reformation Changed The Church

frontline.org ^ | Dr. Peter Hammond

[metmom]

Judith Anne, NYer, and Salvation: you have a call from Cronos on the white phone in the lobby.

They just can't answer it. That would involve talking back.

All they can do is listen and obey.

[HossB86]

“Judith Anne, NYer, and Salvation: you have a call from Cronos on the white phone in the lobby.”

That was classic. We need a “greatest hits” list — this would go near the top.

Boy will it leave a mark.

:D

Hoss

[HossB86]

“They just can’t answer it. That would involve talking back.

All they can do is listen and obey.”

And again! Greatest hits!

:D

Hoss

[Cronos]

Thanks for copying them, AM. Judith, NYer and Salvation share the same views on this as I do —> we want to know if the various groups outside The Church that says they fully follow the words of the NT, enforce these acts —> does your PCA group do this? No, yet do you say that you fully follow every word of the NT?

[blue-duncan]

“The question itself indicates a fixation on legalism”

Not really, it is just reading scripture in context and comparing scripture with scripture. 1 Cor. 7 says the unbeliever is “sanctified” and the children are “holy” as long as the unbeliever remains with the believer. It is assumed that the believer will live the gospel to his/her spouse and children and they “seeing his/her good works (living the gospel) will glorify the Father” i.e. respond positively to the gospel.

[wmfights]

Credobaptists rightly point out that in none of these are infants and children too young to have an understanding of true faith specifically mentioned.

Scripture is consistent. Scripture interprets Scripture. Nowhere in Scripture do you have individuals baptized before they believe. In the 4 separate passages mentioned (Acts 16:15, 16:33, 10:48, ICor.1:16) no infants are mentioned.

I think it would be pretty significant that non believing infants/children would be saved by the belief of another person and it is not said. A child growing up in a believing household has the blessing of being with Christians and learning from them, but I don't see any guarantee that they are saved because of it.

[CynicalBear]

>>no infants are mentioned.<<

By your logic then it doesn’t say there aren’t children in those households either. Given the dynamics of the society of that time it would be ludicrous to think there were not children included.

[wmfights]

Christians can be reasonably assured of their children's salvation because it is God who gave them their children in the first place.

Okay lets look at some of the children of great men of Faith. Which of these were deemed righteous by the Faith of their parents, Ishmael, Esau, Cain.

[Cronos]

Actually, that's incorrect, firstly, the Church has always taught that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was fully sufficient for our salvation.

The Church has always taught the we are saved by God's grace alone. Catholics have always believed in salvation by grace alone.

this is what the Church says on baptism, from the catechism
1 Peter 3:21

21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

See where you are baptized, see where Baptism comes from, if not from the cross of Christ, from his death. There is the whole mystery: he died for you. In him you are redeemed, in him you are saved

Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,"

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Remember that it is the Holy Spirit through water. It is the real Holy Spirit with the sign of water as indicated in 1 Peter 3:21

21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Note Ezekiel 36:25-26

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

The Holy Spirit is the one doing the renewal through the symbol of water, hence we are "washed".

Here is some more examples from scripture that baptism saves
Acts 2:38,

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16;

16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

Rom. 6:1–4;

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

1 Cor 6:11,

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God

1 Cor 12:13;

13 For we were all baptized by[a] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Gal. 3:26–27;

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

Eph. 5:26;

to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,

Col. 2:11–12;

11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[a] was put off when you were circumcised by[b] Christ,
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Titus 3:5;

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

[Cronos]

Note again boatbums -- you are incorrectly attempting to read minds. I intended and said nothing of the sort you accuse me of -- I responded to postsd 696 which says that one group supposedly keeps preaching the Gospel, so I asked if that group follows everything in the Gospels -- down to the words in Timothy etc. At no point did I say "ok, here -- now shush" -- in fact the first post 696 was directed to caww, not me. So, stop trying to read minds, please.

If you wish to answer the question "is there any group that says it completely follows the NT and does not follow these", then please do

[CynicalBear]

>>Okay lets look at some of the children of great men of Faith. Which of these were deemed righteous by the Faith of their parents, Ishmael, Esau, Cain.<<

That analogy doesn’t wash. All Old Testament, i.e. prior to grace, and all adults.

[MarkBsnr]

I do not take or achoo...no, no, that ain't right. I do not take or eschew...ummm, shoot, what comes next? Oh, heck:

Oh noes, you haven't graduated yet...

[presently no screen name]

I have no use for men who try to beat women into subjection using Scripture to bludgeon them with.

I have no use for anyone who bows and submits their soul to men in dresses - for they are weak of mind and Truth.

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

[MarkBsnr]

Matthew 28 - for that matter, all Matthew, Mark, Luke, John was for Israel, not today's form for gospel salvation.

So, Jesus is for informational purposes only and that it truly is Paul that is your saviour. Interesting - this has been declared heresy for a millennium and a half and up it pops again like the whack a mole game at the fair.

[MarkBsnr]

Psalm 37:37 "Mark the perfect man..." ;o)

Since I married the perfect woman, I must do my best to live up to her level.

[MarkBsnr]

You go girl!!!

Any particular place?

[Cronos]

What are you talking about, mm? As an ex-Catholic, you should know that this is what the catechism says

Jesus calls to conversion. This call is an essential part of the proclamation of the kingdom: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."

[wmfights]

Then logically it would follow that you believe all infants who die before they come to faith are not saved. Right?

Scripture is silent on this. We have to just have Faith, but we really don't know. Creating false doctrine to alleviate this fear only leads to more bad doctrine.

[CynicalBear]

>>The Church has always taught the we are saved by God's grace alone. Catholics have always believed in salvation by grace alone.<<

I would suggest that it is not “grace alone” that the Catholic Church instills in the mind of the perishoners.

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).

It looks to me like they use an interpretation of scripture that says grace alone is not enough but that actions precede salvation.

[MarkBsnr]

Pedestals are for plants

And for the perfect woman whom I married. I am not married to you.