[Alamo-Girl]

"Just when I think I'm out, they keep pulling me back in." - The Godfather.

I do not wish to continue a futile sidebar debate with posters whose sense of reality is so greatly reduced that they believe the Creator must be subordinate to the creation.

The egocentricity of such a worldview boggles the mind - it is literally irrational (one-sided, there is no "ratio" there.)

But the lowly photon’s witness has not been understood.

So for the lurkers following the claim that by having created, the Creator is then therefore subject to time – here goes.

To repeat, for the photon traveling a worldline through space/time, no time elapses. That is called a “null path.”

But the photon and its velocity and the space/time it travels are all finite.

More importantly, the photon - which has no mass and for which no time elapses - itself causes things to happen – something that our correspondents claim God the Creator cannot do without being subject to time.

When a photon goes into a black hole, that black hole is physically “informed” – that is cause>effect.

Information is the reduction of uncertainty in the receiver or molecular machine as it goes from a before state to an after state (Shannon, successful communication, the foundation for the field of Mathematics called “Information Theory.”) “Physical information” refers to the information content of a physical system (the message received).

And when that photon meets your eye, you physically sense it and then become aware of it, you are physically “informed.”

When the photon meets a plant's molecule, it becomes “informed” – the effect in this case cascades as the photon is absorbed in photosynthesis.

And not only that, we are informed by ricochet as the light is reflected by the moon, the water in a lake, etc. We are “informed” by the photon’s deflection.

So the photon does all of this, all the while being massless and timeless and yet our correspondents cannot perceive of God the Creator causing anything to happen without Himself being subject to time.

Good grief.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3

My brothers and sisters in Christ may find it interesting that the CMB contains sound waves recording the inception of light in this universe.

The MAXIMA, BOOMERANG, and DASI collaborations, which measure minute variations in the CMB [cosmic microwave background radiation], recently reported new results at the American Physical Society meeting in Washington, D.C. All three agree remarkably about what the ‘harmonic proportions’ of the cosmos imply: not only is the universe flat, but its structure is definitely due to inflation, not to topological defects in the early universe.

The results were presented as plots of slight temperature variations in the CMB that graph sound waves in the dense early universe. These high-resolution ‘power spectra’ show not only a strong primary resonance but are consistent with two additional harmonics, or peaks.

The peaks indicate harmonics in the sound waves that filled the early, dense universe. Until some 300,000 years after the Big Bang, the universe was so hot that matter and radiation were entangled in a kind of soup in which sound waves (pressure waves) could vibrate. The CMB is a relic of the moment when the universe had cooled enough so that photons could “decouple” from electrons, protons, and neutrons; then atoms formed and light went on its way. - The Universe May Be Flat But It Is Nevertheless Musical

To listen in on the sound of the CMB, click here.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

And now we have yet another correspondent who would subject God to energy. It’s the same tune, new verse. Energy is part of the creation, not a restriction on or property of the Creator of it.

God is not thingly.

Man is not the measure of God.

I shall once again try to leave this sidebar...

[betty boop]

More importantly, the photon — which has no mass and for which no time elapses - itself causes things to happen — something that our correspondents claim God the Creator cannot do without being subject to time....

And now we have yet another correspondent who would subject God to energy. It’s the same tune, new verse. Energy is part of the creation, not a restriction on or property of the Creator of it.

"Just when I think I'm out, they keep pulling me back in." — The Godfather.

I shall once again try to leave this sidebar....

Good luck with that, dearest sister in Christ! But please don't go too far away — we need gems of insight and commentary like this one as often as possible!

Absolutely splendid essay/post. Thank you ever so much for writing — and for the great links!

[MHGinTN]

Love the links ... but don’t respond, wouldn’t want to be responsible for dragging you back to this disgusting display of god denial based upon dishonest perturbations.

[xzins]

I appreciate you two so much, and both my sisters in Christ. How wonderful that God has given me such a strengthening family!

And any “piece” of creation cannot the Creator be, and because of being the Creator of it, the Creator is not subject to it. Makes perfect sense to me.

Now, A-G, to leave the sidebar you must leave the thread. I would suggest waiting for another worthy one to pop up. This one has run its course. I think we all can see that.

When it comes to debate with God-deniers, it is pointless except as a means of evangelizing them.

[spirited irish]

snip: So for the lurkers following the claim that by having created, the Creator is then therefore subject to time – here goes

Spirited: This claim is like saying: “he who blows up a balloon must be part of the balloon and therefore subject to the balloon.”
“The balloon spontaneously self-created from nothing,” Haeckel. “The balloon is all there is.”...Carl Sagan (materialism). “Get in touch with your inner balloon”...Swami Vivekananda (pantheism) “Balloon memes,” idiot Dawkins.

Of course this is pagan monistic reasoning, such as it is. And it is why Scripture says that the pagan’s idols have mouths but cannot speak, eyes but cannot see, and those who worship them are like them.

It hasn’t occurred to pagan monists that just as the guy blowing up the balloon stands outside of the balloon while he fills it and sustains it with his breath, so too does our supernatural Creator exist “outside” of (in another dimension) His creation while simultaneously sustaining it.

[spunkets]

" But the lowly photon’s witness has not been understood.

I understand photons just fine.

" So for the lurkers following the claim that by having created, the Creator is then therefore subject to time – here goes.

Time is a quantitative inverse measure of energy. To repeat, in order for something to exist, including a person to exist, it/they must be composed of energy. Also, for any person to perform any act energy must be involved and it must be conserved.

"To repeat, for the photon traveling a worldline through space/time, no time elapses. That is called a “null path.”

Photons don't read clocks and they are not self aware. They and the field in this world that gives rise to them are clocks themselves. Do you understand clocks? What does a clock do?

"But the photon and its velocity and the space/time it travels are all finite.

The photon is a particular amount of energy that arises out of a field in this world, a world which are embedded in a sea of energy called the vacuum, which is essentially infinite. The photon's propagation velocity has a particular value that depends on it's interaction with the energy of the vacuum.

Note that the sea of energy called the vacuum is not space. Space is an inverse measure of the energy density of this world and appears as gravity. Note that as a photon flies and the field that gives rise to it expands, it loses energy to space, which is the gravitational field.

"More importantly, the photon - which has no mass and for which no time elapses - itself causes things to happen – something that our correspondents claim God the Creator cannot do without being subject to time.

Action involves energy which is always conserved and is always accompanied by a corresponding inverse measure thereof which is a time. A photon is energy. It is not only the facilitator, it is an element of the action which is always a transformation of energy. If the action is performed by a person, that person must be composed of the energy that provides for the machinery that provides the functions of an actor. like anything that acts, including persons, require energy. Note that action is a transformation of energy, which can not be created, or destroyed.

" When a photon goes into a black hole, that black hole is physically “informed” – that is cause>effect. Information is the reduction of uncertainty in the receiver or molecular machine as it goes from a before state to an after state (Shannon, successful communication, the foundation for the field of Mathematics called “Information Theory.”) “Physical information” refers to the information content of a physical system (the message received).

A reciever is a machine which is always composed of energy and which also has a fixed number of ways that it's energy can be arranged. Any real instance of information is always physical, which means the instance must have been a result of an energy transformation.

"And when that photon meets your eye, you physically sense it and then become aware of it, you are physically “informed.” When the photon meets a plant's molecule, it becomes “informed” – the effect in this case cascades as the photon is absorbed in photosynthesis.

Enrgy is transferred. IOWs it's transformed and in this case multiple times in systems which are functional machines.

"And not only that, we are informed by ricochet as the light is reflected by the moon, the water in a lake, etc. We are “informed” by the photon’s deflection.

The determination that the photon was deflected requires requires the sentience and rational processing functions of a sentient rational machine. Of course any real instance of such a machine must be composed of energy.

"So the photon does all of this, all the while being massless and timeless and yet our correspondents cannot perceive of God the Creator causing anything to happen without Himself being subject to time."

Massless simply means the photon and the electromagnetic field which it arises from have no interaction with the Higgs field, an interaction, which is an energy transformation, which results in mass. Note also, as per above, the photon is a packet of energy with a partcularly quantified value, which is given as inverse time. A clock is still a clock, even if it is not self aware. In order to tick, energy must transform in a periodic way. The tick is an action and in order for an action to occur, energy must be transformed and never created, or destroyed.

" And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3"

The law of conservation of energy requires that energy be conserved in any real instance of an action. That means that any causative action must arise from an energetic body and most importantly- no action can cause the qualities, properties and laws of energy itself retroactively.

"And now we have yet another correspondent who would subject God to energy. It’s the same tune, new verse. Energy is part of the creation, not a restriction on or property of the Creator of it.

Creation is a transformation of energy; it was not "created". Every real instance of a sentient rational being requires the machinery, which must be composed of energy, to provide for the functions of sentience, rational processing and action.

"Man is not the measure of God."

Irrelevant. The important fact to remember is that Man is a sentient rational being in the Image of God -male and female they are. "I do not wish to continue a futile sidebar debate with posters whose sense of reality is so greatly reduced that they believe the Creator must be subordinate to the creation. The egocentricity of such a worldview boggles the mind - it is literally irrational (one-sided, there is no "ratio" there.)

Whatever. No where did I say that God was subordinate to His creation. Rational in reference to beings refers to logical processing, not sidedness, and not the theory of rational numbers.