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To: James C. Bennett
Since, I believe, your premise is flawed - by wrongly assigning time to the term of art, eternal - you conclusion does not follow:

[Judeo-Christian] based religions cannot be compatible with the First Cause argument.

They're not proven in your argument as incompatible.

As I've said earlier, the first cause argument is often objected to as a "proof for God" because it does not describe in full the Christian concept of God. I agree that it does not.

The rebuttal is that the attributes of eternal, uncaused, unmoved, unchanging, etc. are an integral part of Christian theology and therefore compatible.

I'm avoiding a religious discussion here and sticking to the non-transcendent observation and logic of the first cause argument.

How this would work as far as your objection would be: The first cause, uncaused, eternal, causes the dependent causes finite, in time.

And these, in time, happen in time, and time has days, etc.

So, it could be this is an explanation for that portion.

However, I'm not defending any particular religion biblical stance or interpretation here, rather trying here to stick to the first cause argument. In this context, it doesn't matter to me what the ramifications of the first cause arguments are outside the narrow structure of the argument itself.

1,178 posted on 02/07/2011 12:43:36 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; kosta50
I prefer comparing religious texts to the First Cause argument, because it is the simplest way to nullify the arguments of those religions. This is the only way that honest admission can be brought about, so that logical leaps are not assumed - the admission being that one does not know - therefore leading to somewhat of a deistic opinion with regard to the concept of divinity, if you accept the First Cause "argument". If this is not the case, the only alternative left is to compare your religion's texts for compatibility with your own proposed First Cause argument.

"The rebuttal is that the attributes of eternal, uncaused, unmoved, unchanging, etc. are an integral part of Christian theology and therefore compatible."

"Never the spirit was born; the spirit shall cease to be never;
        65
  Never was time it was not; End and Beginning are dreams!
Birthless and deathless and changeless remaineth the spirit for ever;
  Death hath not touched it at all, dead though the house of it seems!"

- Bhagavad-Gita, Ch: II, Lines 65-68.

 

"Of what metes days and years,
Time’s self I am; "
- Bhagavad-Gita, Ch: X, Lines 82-83.

"Thou seest Me as Time who kills, Time who brings all to doom,
The Slayer Time, Ancient of Days, come hither to consume;"
- Bhagavad-Gita, Ch: XI, Lines 201-202.


"That Truth which giveth man Amrit to drink,
The Truth of HIM, the Para-Brahm, the All,
The Uncreated; not Asat, not Sat,
Not Form, nor the Unformed; yet both, and more;—
Whose hands are everywhere, and everywhere
Planted His feet, and everywhere, His eyes
Beholding, and His ears in every place
Hearing, and all His faces everywhere
Enlightening and encompassing His worlds.
Glorified by the senses He hath given,
Yet beyond sense He is; sustaining all,
He dwelleth unattached: of forms and modes
Master, yet neither form nor mode hath He;
He is within all beings—and without—
Motionless, yet still moving; not discerned
For subtlety of instant presence; close
To all, to each, yet measurelessly far!
Not manifold, and yet subsisting still
In all which lives; for ever to be known
As the Sustainer, yet, at the End of Times,
He maketh all to end—and re-creates.
The Light of Lights He is, in the heart of the Dark
Shining eternally. Wisdom He is
And Wisdom’s way, and Guide of all the wise,
Planted in every heart.
        So have I told
Of Life’s stuff, and the moulding, and the lore
To comprehend. Whoso, adoring Me,
Perceiveth this, shall surely come to Me!"
 
- Bhagavad-Gita, Ch: XIII, Lines 39-67.
 
"There be those, too, whose knowledge, turned aside
By this desire or that, gives them to serve
Some lower gods, with various rites, constrained
By that which mouldeth them. Unto all such—
Worship what shrine they will, what shapes, in faith—
’Tis I who give them faith! I am content!
The heart thus asking favor from its God,
Darkened but ardent, hath the end it craves,
The lesser blessing—but ’tis I who give!
Yet soon is withered what small fruit they reap
Those men of little minds, who worship so,
Go where they worship, passing with their gods.
But Mine come unto me! Blind are the eyes
Which deem th’ Unmanifested manifest,
Not comprehending Me in my true Self!
Imperishable, viewless, undeclared,
Hidden behind my magic veil of shows,
I am not seen by all; I am not known—
Unborn and changeless—to the idle world.
But I, Arjuna! know all things which were,
And all which are, and all which are to be,
Albeit not one among them knoweth Me!"
 
- Bhagavad-Gita, Ch: VII, Lines 69-90.

Works elsewhere too, eh? That's why I insist on comparing religions with the apologetics they claim as their own.

1,184 posted on 02/07/2011 3:09:05 PM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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