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To: MarkBsnr; Cronos
"Reading the Institutes through, one is struck by the amount of navel gazing went into it. But even Martin Luther, once one goes beyond the 95 Theses, is remarkably self-absorbed, at least until he understood his mortality and began along the road of repentence (did he ever get there? The evidence is mixed)."

Really? "Navel gazing"? I have a copy at home and am interested in the portion you consider "Navel gazing". No question Calvin drilled on the damage sin has wreaked, the broken natures of man at war with God and the desparate need for God to reach to man, but I would hardly consider this navel gazing. Perhaps more such "navel gazing" needs to be done by Rome and then they might abandon their Semi-Pelagian heresies.

And, speaking of Semi-Pelagianism, when you get an opportunity, check Luther's "Bondage of the Will". Here is the "hingepin" of the Reformation, one of his watershed works wherein he set out robust Augustinianism from the weak Semi-Pelagianism of Erasmus (as he was asked to speak for the RCC in his "Diatribe").

Hopefully, Luther never repented from this position, although his consubstantiation moved dangerously close to the transubstantiation he was originally taught to embrace. Old habits die hard.

As I've mentioned, that's why we don't venerate men and have no heroes. None. That God used men to produce His Word, the Scriptures, does not mean that the men themselves warrant reverence any more than the sun does, even though God made both.

But, this whole line of discussion came from a post that implied there was something remarkable about Holland now descending into moral obliviion and simultaneiously returning to Catholicism. I was struggling to understand anything positive the writer intended to prove with this statistic. He/she claimed that the country was tiring of Reformed theology and was going home. Such argument is not only laughable, but if it represents the general use of logic from within the RCC, may tip us off why Holland is concurrently descending. Reality is not on the radar screen. I ping him/her here only out of courtesy.

76 posted on 01/21/2011 8:58:08 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
although his consubstantiation moved dangerously close to the transubstantiation

Consubstantiation is not Lutheran.

78 posted on 01/21/2011 10:07:10 AM PST by xone
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To: Dutchboy88; MarkBsnr
Luther never repented from this position, although his consubstantiation moved dangerously close

What are you talking about? Lutherans do not believe in consubstantiation

Lutherans believe in the real presence of Christ's true body and blood in the elements of the Sacrament. They reject the idea that this is any kind of "symbol", holding that they are REALLY Christ's true body and blood present

Lutherans confirm this with 1 Cor. 10:16-17, where Paul writes: "The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread." Paul clearly says here that we all "partake" of "BREAD" when we receive the Lord's Supper--even as we also partake of and "participate in" the true body of Christ. And he says that we all "partake" of the wine (the cup), even as we also partake of the true blood of Christ. Similarly, in 1 Cor. 11:26, Paul says: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." Paul expressly states here that when we receive the Lord's Supper we are "eating bread" and "drinking the cup" (wine), but he goes on to say that those who eat this bread and drink this cup are also partaking of the true body and blood of Christ.

So "real" is this participation in Christ's body and blood, in fact, that (according to Paul) those who partake of the bread and wine "in an unworthy manner" are actually guilty of "profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:27). (Partaking of the Lord's Supper "in a worthy manner," of course, is not something that we "do" or "accomplish" on the basis of our "personal holiness" or "good works." It means receiving God's free and gracious gifts of life and forgiveness offered in the Lord's Supper in true repentance produced by the work of the Spirit through God's Law and in true faith in Christ and his promises produced by God's Spirit through the Gospel).

89 posted on 01/27/2011 1:15:03 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Dutchboy88
Really? "Navel gazing"? I have a copy at home and am interested in the portion you consider "Navel gazing".

The concept of the elect being a diminutive subset of humanity, with not only Calvin, but all the Calvinists then and now. The very self absorption that generated the theories that he came up with, with the disdainful dismissal of the wider view of the teachings of Jesus is almost textbook navel gazing. The very concept was generated by Calvin, for the benefit of Calvin (in several ways - both egotistical (I can form my own religion and spurn what Christianity is), and theological (I can form my own religion in the manner which most suits me), as well as temporal (becoming theocratic dictator over Geneva). Unlike Luther, Calvin was more interested in power than in luxury. And he got it in spades.

And, speaking of Semi-Pelagianism, when you get an opportunity, check Luther's "Bondage of the Will". Here is the "hingepin" of the Reformation, one of his watershed works wherein he set out robust Augustinianism from the weak Semi-Pelagianism of Erasmus (as he was asked to speak for the RCC in his "Diatribe").

I haven't read it in a long time; I'll have to look it up again. Isn't that where Luther actually lays out a weaker form of the Sacrament of Reconciliation?

Hopefully, Luther never repented from this position, although his consubstantiation moved dangerously close to the transubstantiation he was originally taught to embrace. Old habits die hard.

Reportedly, Luther repented of many things he had done; unlike Augustine, he never returned to the Faith. But if I recall, didn't Luther actually lay out the argument that sin incapacitates one from coming to God but if God redeems a man, he is then free to choose to come to God?

It does sound, now that I think of it, like a weaker version of the Sacrament of Confession and repentence of sin.

As I've mentioned, that's why we don't venerate men and have no heroes. None. That God used men to produce His Word, the Scriptures, does not mean that the men themselves warrant reverence any more than the sun does, even though God made both.

So Matthew 25 means nothing to you? The Acts of the Apostles? Ephesians 5:33?

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Joshua 4:14 That day the LORD exalted Joshua in the sight of all Israel; and they revered him all the days of his life, just as they had revered Moses.

Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

note that this worship was done to one of the angels of God

But, this whole line of discussion came from a post that implied there was something remarkable about Holland now descending into moral obliviion and simultaneiously returning to Catholicism. I was struggling to understand anything positive the writer intended to prove with this statistic. He/she claimed that the country was tiring of Reformed theology and was going home. Such argument is not only laughable, but if it represents the general use of logic from within the RCC, may tip us off why Holland is concurrently descending. Reality is not on the radar screen. I ping him/her here only out of courtesy.

I fear that Holland will sink yet further into the mire before any return to God will happen.

98 posted on 01/27/2011 5:39:54 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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