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To: MHGinTN
Paul was not talking about being born again in that phrase, he was talking about enduring until the end to receive the rewards for the race he ran. You cannot enter the race on your own merit, Logo. But I can see why that is confusing for you.

Are you sure you are talking about Romans 8? I thought Paul wrote about running the race in 1 Corinthians 9 and Hebrews 12. But then, perhaps I am confused.

Those quibbles aside, I agree that one must be born again, that one must run patiently the race set before us, and that one must endure to the end. I also agree that one cannot do any of these things on his own merits.

Those are all perfectly good Mormon doctrines. (I would be happy to cite the Book of Mormon in support of that claim; but perhaps I should first check to see what Tolkien and Melville may have written on the subject.)

242 posted on 10/28/2010 2:11:24 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile
Let's un-parse your assertion:

"Those quibbles aside, I agree that one must be born again, that one must run patiently the race set before us, and that one must endure to the end. I also agree that one cannot do any of these things on his own merits." Logophile Do you believe that one must FIRST be born again, THEN run the race set before us? Do you believe that 'endure to the end' refers to running the race AFTER being born again? Careful how you answer, because your religion has quotes from your leadership we can consult to check your Mormon answer.

247 posted on 10/28/2010 2:56:56 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Logophile
(I would be happy to cite the Book of Mormon in support of that claim; but perhaps I should first check to see what Tolkien and Melville may have written on the subject.)

Actually made me laugh......

250 posted on 10/28/2010 3:13:44 PM PDT by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: Logophile
Let's look at Romans 8, since you wish to avoid the race analogy. I will confine my editorializing to italics, for clarity:

Romans 8:1-17 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [That is now, not in some future exchange, now no condemnation to them who walk not after the flesh, trying to resist the flesh's influence like Mormonism teaches as a condition for receiving the Grace of God in Christ.] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [Surely you see that Paul is pointing to the weakness/impossibility of legalism--like Mormonism teaches as pre-condition to receiving--to receive the Grace. If you could keep the law to be righteous, the cross would be superfluous. If you cannot see that meaning, I have other passages which will make it clear for you, but Paul interates the meaning in the following.]

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [Paul is telling Mormons that to seek salvation 'after all that you can do'--that is governing oneself by the carnal mind--is to be subject to the law of sin and death, that Jesus ended that impossible task with His own blood as the perfect sacrifice. In the Jewish tradition, the sacrifice was given to cancel the sins of the past year, or to cancel the sins which would yet occur in the coming year? ... The blood was to cancel the sins already committed, then the blood would have to be applied again in a years time. But Jesus offered His own blood, that, once for all sins, so you can walk after the spirit from the day you are born again, all the rest of your life because your sins, all your sins, have been blotted out.]

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [The Spirit, God's Spirit, The Spirit of Christ is to dwell in you from the moment you are born again. To ignore that precious truth is to spit in God's face.] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. [Notice, again Paul emphasizes the Spirit of Christ, The Holy Spirit dwells in you.]

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [Notice again, this is cast in the present tense, not a pie in the sky right before you die transaction as Mormonism teaches.]

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

'But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.' ... If a Mormon insists on 'after all that he or she can do then to receive the Grace and Spirit of God, that person is not now a Christian, because they are walking after the flesh, with the carnal mind battling daily to defeat sin and conquer death. BUT if that Mormon receives the Spirit and walks after the spirit, not waiting to receive the Grace of God in Christ into them after all that they can do to earn the Grace, then that Mormon is a Christian. That is what Paul teaches is the action of faith, faithing, walking after the Spirit relying on the Promise of God.

The sequence is 'be born again, receive into your spirit the Spirit of Christ, walk in the spirit and God will defeat the power of sin and death in you for the rest of your life'. Sure, you'll slip and fall, but there is now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus. You cannot lose His promised Salvation, for if you could then you would have to crucify again the Son of God to obtain cleansing. [I'm sure you know to which passage in Paul's letters that comes from.] Do you believe God would entrust His precious Grace to your care, you who has been defeated by the law of sin and death and needing the only remedy, the Blood fo Christ?

252 posted on 10/28/2010 3:40:52 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Logophile
It appears you are dodging my question, in order to allow a purposed confusion. So I will again post:

Let's un-parse your assertion:
"... I agree that one must be born again, that one must run patiently the race set before us, and that one must endure to the end. I also agree that one cannot do any of these things on his own merits." Logophile

Do you believe that one must FIRST be born again, THEN run the race set before us? Do you believe that 'endure to the end' refers to running the race AFTER being born again? I posted the passages from Romans 8 because you seem confused. Can you answer the above questions directly?

266 posted on 10/28/2010 5:17:19 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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