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To: HarleyD; kosta50; maryz; bkaycee
There is only God's will and man's will. God's will is good. Man's will is bad (to do the things of God).

I think we're, partly, in a semantical problem more than a theological one.

You are defining: choosing self is "bad" and choosing God is "good" and saying there is no free choice. I'm saying this is the choice we face every day - self or God. This is how I'm describing free will choice.

once free, it is capable of doing the works of God. But it is only when man's will is free can it be guided by the Holy Spirit to do the things of God. This is the technically accruate description of what happens. But there is no free will by which man can do things pleasing to God. It is impossible.

I think this is confusing, and I think it is confusing because it is trying to say there is free will and then that there is not. I believe it is also confusing because it's counter to our experience, a very basic human experience of making decisions.

In any given instant, deciding to follow God does not mean we are God or we create "good"; however, neither does it mean we do not have a decision to make and make it. Would you agree with this statement?

6,537 posted on 09/20/2010 7:23:17 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; kosta50; maryz; bkaycee
You are defining: choosing self is "bad" and choosing God is "good" and saying there is no free choice. I'm saying this is the choice we face every day - self or God. This is how I'm describing free will choice.

I would suggest that it's more than just semantics. What most Protestants do not understand is that they are really espousing Catholic/Orthodox beliefs; man is free to make choices that will be pleasing to God. In other words, they choose to come to faith and should do good work leading to a more holy. It isn't a bit surprising that our Catholics friends agree with your position. What you should be questioning, in true Protestant fashion, is why do they agree with your position.

I think this is confusing, and I think it is confusing because it is trying to say there is free will and then that there is not.

There is no free will. You should erase that from your mind. The scriptures says that you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.

To put this another way, if there was free will, if you actually had a choice to choose God's way or your way, then why don't you choose to go God's way in every single decision that you make? The answer is that you are not truly free. You (and all of us) have a sin nature that rebels against freely doing the things of God.

I believe it is also confusing because it's counter to our experience, a very basic human experience of making decisions.

It is confusing because the doctrine is wrong and people keep perpetuating this myth. It was born out of Pelagius who believed we could do things pleasing to God. This was rebuked by the Church (at one time). It fester in the Church through people like John Cassian who was a student of Pelagius. It became more prominent during the Renaissance when humanism took hold of the Church. Protestant broke away in part because of the emphasis on this. Yet it crept into the Protestant church doctrine through Joseph Arminian.

It sounds really good. We hear the words of God. We make a choice. We decide to follow Christ. We fail but God will pick us up and set us on the path. It sounds great but it's all a lie that is nothing more than a works-based methodology cleverly disguised.

The real gospel according to scripture is: God opens our hearts to hear His word. God brings us to the point of repentance. God helps us to follow Him. God leads us in our path and, though we want to stray because of our nature, He pick us up and carries us through. Eventually, we are taught which directions to take through God's divine hand.

This is the Protestant (and true) gospel. Do you see a difference? In the Catholic version, the emphasis is on what "we" will do. Undoubtedly, many of our Catholic friends will quote to me some obscure cathacism; but the truth of the matter is their system is based upon pleasing God. In the Protestant version the emphasis is on God doing everything.

Alas, it is difficult to find many Protestant churches today that teaches the founding doctrines of the Protestant faith. But this was the belief of Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc, long ago. It is one of the reason Protestants were very angry at the Catholic church-and one of the reason Catholics hated the Protestants. If you don't believe me look at the Council of Trent which tells us man has "free will" and if someone says differently they should be cursed. Now why do you suppose that is?

In any given instant, deciding to follow God does not mean we are God or we create "good"; however, neither does it mean we do not have a decision to make and make it.

Yes, I would agree if I understand this correctly. When we become new creatures it not a *POOF* and you're good. God puts His Spirit in us to walk in His ways. WE can decide which way to choose but our Heavenly Father watches over us and guides our paths. If we choose poorly, God knows this, allows it and He uses this to teach us. God also guides us to do good things for His kingdom-which, if left to our own, we would not do.

6,552 posted on 09/21/2010 1:59:46 AM PDT by HarleyD
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