Intended Catholic Dictatorship

Intended Catholic Dictatorship

"B. Catholic Culture and Civilization

"Therefore, the ideal of the Counter-Revolution is to restore and promote Catholic culture and civilization. This theme would not be sufficiently enunciated if it did not contain a definition of what we understand by Catholic culture and Catholic civilization. We realize that the terms civilization and culture are used in many different senses. Obviously, it is not our intention here to take a position on a question of terminology. We limit ourselves to using these words as relatively precise labels to indicate certain realities. We are more concerned with providing a sound idea of these realities than with debating terminology.

"A soul in the state of grace possesses all virtues to a greater or lesser degree. Illuminated by faith, it has the elements to form the only true vision of the universe.

"The fundamental element of Catholic culture is the vision of the universe elaborated according to the doctrine of the Church. This culture includes not only the learning, that is, the possession of the information needed for such an elaboration, but also the analysis and coordination of this information according to Catholic doctrine. This culture is not restricted to the theological, philosophical, or scientific field, but encompasses the breadth of human knowledge; it is reflected in the arts and implies the affirmation of values that permeate all aspects of life.

"Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church.

—Reginald Firehammer (06/28/10)

Dear smvoice,

A relic is part of the remains of a saint, or something that came into contact with the saint or his remains. There is nothing supernatural implicated in the existence of relics. The thing either is part of the remains of a saint or something that came into contact therewith, or it's not. It's not a supernatural claim at all.

I was in Baltimore recently and visited the Basilica there. They have a nice little museum. In it, there is a kneeler on which the late Pope John Paul II knelt. There's even a photo of him kneeling on the kneeler. The kneeler is a relic because the late pope touched it. There is nothing supernatural to that claim. Should Pope John Paul be someday canonized, the kneeler will be a relic of a canonized saint of the Catholic Church.

That is the only material claim about the relic. Do you deny that it is a relic? Do you need further investigation that it is a relic?

It is entirely possible to believe that a material object is a relic without believing that there is anything supernatural associated with it (although, to deny that supernatural events have been associated with relics in the past is to deny the historicity of the Bible, but that's another story).

“Yes, if I needed absolute PROOF that a miracle had occurred, the first place I would check is the Catholic Church.”

Absolute proof of most anything is available to no one, at least not as we understand the words “absolute proof.” However, persuasive testimony is something that I would seek from the Church, as Jesus gives considerable authority to the Church.

You don't view the Catholic Church as the Church. I do. In this, we differ. You're wrong, and you will find that out someday. But I won't spend any time trying to persuade you otherwise.

sitetest

861 posted on 09/01/2010 9:00:43 AM PDT by sitetest ( If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)

If the credibility of Religion Forum posters were subject to personal attack, then the advantage would not go to any particular religious belief but to atheists because not just the statements would be subject to empirical or logical proofs but the poster himself would be subject to accusations of malicious intent, superstition, mindlessness, etc.

This is a Religion Forum. Posters believe all kinds of things because of and also in spite of, physical or logical evidence.

A poster's testimony is what it is.

862 posted on 09/01/2010 9:15:56 AM PDT by Religion Moderator

To: roamer_1; Cronos; sitetest; Legatus; Quix

Magnanimous of you, but you'll be called a liar until the cows come home, no matter how much proof you have to offer of healing.

People who don't want to believe it won't, no matter how much proof is offered.

Luke 16:19-31

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

863 posted on 09/01/2010 9:17:26 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)

I look forward to it!

864 posted on 09/01/2010 9:20:22 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl

To: Religion Moderator

Dear Religion Moderator,

“If the credibility of Religion Forum posters were subject to personal attack, then the advantage would not go to any particular religious belief but to atheists...”

No, the advantage would go to the truth. And that would be very good for Catholics. Disadvantaging the truth is anti-Catholic.

“...because not just the statements would be subject to empirical or logical proofs but the poster himself would be subject to accusations of malicious intent, superstition, mindlessness, etc.”

In that Catholics are regularly accused of all these things, in general, I'm not sure that it would matter much to say them in particular. But the things you mention are all subjective in nature.

There are objective facts that exist about posters that are observable by all, and these facts can be used to impeach the credibility of a poster. Disallowing them is disadvantaging the truth, and to disadvantage the truth is inherently anti-Catholic.

sitetest

865 posted on 09/01/2010 9:23:21 AM PDT by sitetest ( If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)

To: Iscool; terycarl

No, I mean like the ones given below:

EXAMPLE: Evangelist/ missionary David Hogan often uses this technique. Every time he speaks to groups, he claims to have raised 400+ people from the dead and performed many amazing miracles. Although he relates many incredible stories, he never actually performs miracles at his meetings . . . he just talks about all the miracles that he supposedly performed somewhere else.

Hogan's fans often describe him as a great man of God who heals the sick and raises the dead. When directly asked, however, they admit that they have never actually seen Hogan do any miracles. The only reason they have to believe that Hogan has ever performed any miracles is that Hogan himself claims that he has.

div>EXAMPLE: This is one of the most common healing techniques and is used by many, many faith healers. One of the best known examples is Peter Popoff, who used a few trusted collegues to scout for healing candidates among the crowds that came to his healing services. Popoff's scouts always asked people in wheelchairs if they could walk a little or not at all. Any that could walk a little were called up to the front for 'healing' during the subsequent service. The technique was exposed by skeptic James Randi who placed actors in the audience to claim that they had disabilities. Randi's actors were interviewed by Popoff's scouts, and the information transmitted to Popoff via a radio transmitter. Randi intercepted and recorded the transmissions, which fed Popoff information on various audience members, including which of them would make good 'healing' candidates. there are more examples in the link --> read 'em and you too can form a sub-division of the Quixotic grouping!eys and his authority away from him."

Why exactly would you believe in this?<

From here

Dr. Patrick Dixon in his book "Signs of Revival" lists six characteristics of an Altered State of Consciousness:

1. Alterations in thinking
2. Altered sense of time
3. Loss of control
4. Changes in emotional expression
5. Body image changes
6. Perceptual changes or hallucinations

The "laughing revival" is an altered state of consciousness.
A similar experience has taken place in Seattle, Washington called the "Seattle Revival Center." In 1994, three pastors, Darrel Stott of Lake Boren Christian Center, Steve Richard of Freedom Life Foursquare, and Wayne Anderson of International Church traveled to Toronto and claimed they "got drunk in the Holy Spirit."
Pastor Stott tells of his legs growing weak, falling on the floor, his legs flying in the air, laughing uncontrollably, feeling like a drunk, staggering, swinging around posts, shaking, furniture flying in the room, floor rolling, twitching, yelling, rolling down the halls, etc.. ("O Timothy" - #8, 1997 - page 2-4)
I believe these apparitions are demonic. At the Lausanne II Evangelical Conference in Manila in 1989, John Wimber testified of these supposed signs and wonders. "A member of the press panel from India refuted the claim that these miracles and signs must be from God. He said that the same charismatic-styled tongues, healings, miracles, signs and wonders are also found among the heathen religions of his native India." ("Foundation" magazine - March-April, 1997 - page 13)

As Quix said " And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

And as you said in post # 754 But even then, the worst of the bunch, the Benny Hinns with their prosperity gospel, would get my support

So, of course people reject Christ and go for fake Benny Hinns and fake groups like the WordoFaith and FourSquare pent-o-mime cults.

It shows that Satan's temptations are strong when people reject Christ and really support Benny, the guy who proffers the following

"When you say I am a Christian, you are saying 'I am a messiah' in Hebrew. I am a little messiah walking on earth." - Praise-a-Thon, TBN 6 November 1990.

"This thing has almost become comical. Paul, here is what I believe. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost - three separate individuals, one in essence, one in work, and may I add, each of them possesses his own spirit body. That's what I believe." TBN, 23 Oct. 1992

"God the Father, ladies and gentleman, is a person and He is a triune being by Himself, separate from the Son and the Holy Ghost... See, God the Father is a person, God the Son is a person, God the Holy Ghost is a person; but each one of them is a triune being by himself. If I can shock you and maybe I should, there's nine of them! What did you say? Let me explain. God the Father, ladies and gentlemen, is a person with his own personal spirit, with his own personal soul and his own personal spirit body. You say, I never heard that! Well, you think you are in church to hear things you heard for the last fifty years?" Orlando Christian Centre Broadcast, 13 Oct. 1990.
Why do you agree to Benny's philostophy?

Satan keeps popping up charlatans who lead people away from Christ. He also leads people away by making them believe that they know all and can interpret God in their own image. You should not let him lead you away from God - instead return to Christ's Church, the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church

I'll quote terycarl from post # 823

thanks but I will stick with the religion founded personally by Jesus....that would, of course be Catholicism.

866 posted on 09/01/2010 9:46:26 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

To: metmom; roamer_1

No one's calling roamer a liar -- he just has to post pictures of before and afte and the name of the pent-e-costal Benny Hinn like pastor at whose healing service he got healed.

No one has denied that miracles can happen, that God does heal. However, Mr. Roamer went to attack post #697 which specificaly pointed out charlatans like Peter Popoff and co. If Mr. Roamer got cured by him or Hagin or Hinn or Hogan, then he has a point against post #697. If not, then he has jumped off the topic by talking about himself -- a violation of forum rules on "making it personal".

867 posted on 09/01/2010 9:58:33 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

To: metmom; roamer_1

Pentecostals often remain in Pentecostalism despite many misgivings for one simple reason: the healings. They may admit that many of the practices and teachings are unbiblical. They may confess that there is rampant abuse and manipulation. But they shake off the doubts because they have seen so many supernatural events--people stand up out of wheelchairs, back pain healed, etc. And so they wonder, "If this is really so bad, why are so many people being healed? Isn't it all worth it if sick people are being restored to health?"

However, Pentecostal church services are all about showmanship and appearance. It is surprisingly easy to fake healings, even to hold entire healing services in which people appear to be 'healed' all over the church and yet no one is really cured. How is this accomplished? The trick is usually, as Miracle Max said in the quote above, to focus on problems which can be resolved some way other than strictly supernaturally, to learn to 'heal' those who are only partly ill or can be made to seem well when they are not.

Let's examine some of the most common 'healing' tricks in the Pentecostal experience:

(a) Bigfoot Sightings. Perhaps the largest category of fake healings is what I call "Bigfoot Sightings", because, like the mythical Bigfoot, all that is known about these healings is that somebody else swears that they saw them and that they are real.

Most often, it is the pastor or a visiting evangelist who relates stories of healings that occurred somewhere else. When these 'healings' are described in great detail to excited crowds, people tend to forget that they never actually witnessed the event and have no reason to believe that it actually occurred. In the retelling of the story, people often relate the healing as though they witnessed it themselves. It is only upon careful questioning that the truth emerges: nobody actually saw this one; it was just a story told to the group by some convincing-sounding guy with a microphone.

EXAMPLE: Evangelist/ missionary David Hogan often uses this technique. Every time he speaks to groups, he claims to have raised 400+ people from the dead and performed many amazing miracles. Although he relates many incredible stories, he never actually performs miracles at his meetings . . . he just talks about all the miracles that he supposedly performed somewhere else.

Hogan's fans often describe him as a great man of God who heals the sick and raises the dead. When directly asked, however, they admit that they have never actually seen Hogan do any miracles. The only reason they have to believe that Hogan has ever performed any miracles is that Hogan himself claims that he has.

(b) "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" Occasionally, 'healings' are fakes, plain and simple. Many evangelists believe that seeing people apparently get healed raises the level of faith of the parishioners and so opens the door for real healings. They use this as an excuse to orchestrate healing shows that are planned in advance simply to shock and amaze the crowd.

EXAMPLE: It is difficult to say how often this technique is used, because evangelists who employ it are usually quite careful to cover their tracks. However, occasionally, scandals open up that allow a glimpse inside such misdealings. One of the best known examples of the intentional and calculated use of fake healings involved cult leader Jim Jones. Jones began his ill-fated career as a Pentecostal revivalist and healer. One of his favorite techniques involved healing people of 'cancer' by apparently removing chunks of foul-smelling material from their bodies that he claimed were the cancerous tissues. People's Temple insiders later confessed that the 'cancers' were actually rotten chicken livers, produced at the appropriate time during the church service with a little slight-of-hand.

(c) MOSTLY disabled or ALL disabled? One of the most obvious and most popular techniques used by faith healers is based upon a popular misunderstanding of disabilities. When someone is in a wheelchair, people tend to assume that the person cannot walk AT ALL. This is rarely the case. Most people in wheelchairs can stand and even walk a little, just not far and not well. Likewise, when a person is said to be blind or deaf, people tend to assume that the person cannot see or hear AT ALL. Again, this is rarely the case. Most blind people can see a little, just not very well, and most people who are 'deaf' are really only partially deaf.

This explains why many 'miracles' that occur in faith-healing services appear to be only partial healings. A healer may tell someone in a wheelchair to stand and walk. The person shakily stands and limps painfully across the stage. The crowd cheers, because they think that this is amazing progress and that the person is on his or her way to a full recovery. But, in fact, it may be no improvement at all. Likewise, many healers will test a healing of a blind person by holding up a handkerchief and asking the person to grab it. When the blind person is able to take hold of the handkerchief, the crowd is amazed, not realizing that there is nothing remarkable about a partly blind person being able to see a large white object held only inches from his or her face.

EXAMPLE: This is one of the most common healing techniques and is used by many, many faith healers. One of the best known examples is Peter Popoff, who used a few trusted collegues to scout for healing candidates among the crowds that came to his healing services. Popoff's scouts always asked people in wheelchairs if they could walk a little or not at all. Any that could walk a little were called up to the front for 'healing' during the subsequent service. The technique was exposed by skeptic James Randi who placed actors in the audience to claim that they had disabilities. Randi's actors were interviewed by Popoff's scouts, and the information transmitted to Popoff via a radio transmitter. Randi intercepted and recorded the transmissions, which fed Popoff information on various audience members, including which of them would make good 'healing' candidates.

there are more examples in the link --> read 'em and you too can form a sub-division of the Quixotic grouping!eys and his authority away from him." (Ibid., 4-6.)

"As a believer, you have a right to make commands in the name of Jesus. Each time you stand on the Word, you are commanding God to a certain extent because it is His Word."

Why exactly do you believe these?

868 posted on 09/01/2010 9:59:40 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

To: metmom; roamer_1

As I pointed out to roamer in post # 841

You started this in response to my post #697 on "How to Fake a Pentecostal Healing"

Do you dispute any of the examples given there? No. Instead you jump on in #702 "Would you care to dissect and disassemble my healing? Anointing and prayer one evening, rose up and walked the next day... "

869 posted on 09/01/2010 10:02:17 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

My posts were specifically targetted at the fake pent-c-coastal preachers like Benny Hinn, Sista Aimee McPherson, Kenneth Hagin and co --> I have mentioned before that I do not club Assemblies of God in this crew and among other Protestant groups, there may be some that have the same practices, but that is a separate discussion -- read the posts again and you will see which groups these are directly targetted at --> was roamer_1 healed by a member of the FourSquare or Benny Hinn or Ken Hagin's groups?

If you or roamer wish to prove that these or Popoff or any of the other fake healers are correct, please provide your proofs. As roamer said in #838 "Put up or shut up, as the saying goes... "

870 posted on 09/01/2010 10:04:05 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

Unitarian Universalists have no “church” —> they don’t even believe that Christ was / is / will be God.

871 posted on 09/01/2010 10:11:12 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

To: D-fendr; OLD REGGIE

And to attack a Christian faith for a doctrine while not holding the most basic of all Christian doctrines, for example, well, hiding that, while not being honest, is at least understandable.

hmmmm...Old Reggie -- you Unitarians deny the Trinity, right?

872 posted on 09/01/2010 10:12:43 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

To: Religion Moderator; Cronos

Ok, so if one says to roamer - "that statement is false. You're good, but the statement is a lie repeated. Can the statement prove that it is not a lie by using verifiable sources and not Oks from folks on this forum" -- is that ok?

The proposed statement makes no sense to me.

And I thought I was alone in attempting to make sense of the line of questioning.

873 posted on 09/01/2010 10:21:38 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)

874 posted on 09/01/2010 10:25:30 AM PDT by Religion Moderator

So Unitarians such as yourself do not believe in the Trinity and deny the divinity of Christ? That is incorrect. Christ was God — why would you believe otherwise?

So Catholics such as yourself believe Mary is a Mediator between man and God? That is incorrect. There is "...one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,".

Why would you believe otherwise?

875 posted on 09/01/2010 10:48:14 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)

Once again the arrogant stupidity of assuming anything about what I believe

Ah, so it's wrong to assume that a Unitarian does not believe Christ is God?

Or is it wrong to assume that a Unitarian does not believe in the Trinity?

Yes.

876 posted on 09/01/2010 10:50:48 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)

To: OLD REGGIE; Religion Moderator

well, it goes in line with the RM’s statement that one can criticise the statement, not the one making the statement, which akin to saying “The statement was a lie! But the person saying it is not a liar”

877 posted on 09/01/2010 10:51:50 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

To: OLD REGGIE; Religion Moderator

And of course it's like those who attack the Christian faith for a doctrine while not holding the most basic of all Christian doctrines, like the Trinity. Very imcomprehensible....

What do you Unitarians believe in, Old REg? That Jesus was not God, just a Good man?

878 posted on 09/01/2010 10:53:59 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

Because I believe in the Trinity, unlike Unitarians such as yourself. We Trinitarians consider Christ to be God. Unitarians deny the divinity of Christ. That is incorrect. Christ was God — why would you believe otherwise?

879 posted on 09/01/2010 10:58:32 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

What is a Unitarian?

Today, most Unitarian Universalists do not consider themselves Christians, even if they share some beliefs quite similar to those of mainstream Christians. Universalists believe in a loving God.

To a fundamental Christian, a Unitarian is a heretic who has rejected Jesus as the only "way, the truth and the light". A Unitarian on one hand says that Jesus is the greatest teacher. But Unitarians are blinded to His teachings. Jesus said "I and the Father are One". And, Jesus also taught John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life.

To a Christian, a Unitarian seems like someone who can never make up their mind about anything. One of their claims is that they are Unitarians so not to be led into errors by the "teachings of men". But, in remaining outside Christianity, and truly grasping the teachings of Jesus, they fall into the same trap they propose to be hiding from --being misled by men who teach them false doctrines. The Unitarians reject the doctrine of eternal damnation, the Trinity (triune God), and the divinity of Jesus. Universalism is the theological doctrine that all souls will ultimately be saved and that there are no torments of hell.

As a unitarian, do you by default believe in universalism?

880 posted on 09/01/2010 11:00:43 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)

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