Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
We can agree that salvation is a gift, unmerited. We are saved by Grace through the Redemption.
Where I’ve jumped ahead is in the theology of infused grace vs imputed grace.
This is where the true argument lies. The simplistic saved/pregnancy concept was to me, ridiculously annoying reducing Quantum mechanics to counting on fingers.
The reformers believed in salvation by “faith alone.” This doctrine is largely incompatible with the understanding of infused righteousness. They also believe that the fallen nature of man is so severe that nothing we do, even after baptism and having been justified by grace, could be pleasing to God.
Their thinking alienates faith and works from one another. They believe that anything we do somehow diminishes the complete work of Christ on the cross. Unfortunately, they do not realize or appreciate the fact that the good works we do in justification per Eph 2:10 are actually the work of the Father’s hands within our hearts, minds, bodies, and souls. This in no way diminishes the complete work of Jesus on the cross, but instead expresses the complete work of Jesus and how the Father intends to apply it in our lives.
The purpose of our justification is that we be “conformed to the image of Jesus.[see Romans 8:29] We are not conformed to the image of Jesus if we remain polluted.
Unfortunately, non-catholic theology misses much of what is said in scripture in terms of justification, salvation, and being a new creation. The only reason that this happens is because of a narrow focus on a few passages of scripture that, when taken out of their proper context, can be erroneously construed to support the notion of salvation by faith alone.
Again, you are mixing justification which is a once and for all act and redemption through the continuing grace of God.
When i was in college, a friend was selling Bibles. I'd heard of a red letter edition but never seen one. I thought it was a totally cool idea. So I ordered one.
When I got it, I realized that, hey, if you're color blind, a red letter edition isn't going to be much different from the regular kind ...
When a gift is given and accepted, ownership is transferred. The gift becomes the property of the receiver. You don't have to work to keep that which you already own.
Romans 4: 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
That’s quite clear. Thanks.
Here’s a question:
Sometimes a non-Catholic will insist that all humans in heaven are equal. As I understand it, they base this on God’s not being a respecter of persons.
You say that post salvation sin leaves scars on the soul and means passing up some rewards.
So I’m wondering if you think all the ‘saints’ are equal.
Really? Did Jesus Christ actually say this or is this some sort of interpretation of something that Saint Paul wrote?
I remember quite clearly a year ago when Ted Kennedy died how many FReepers were wondering why he had a Catholic funeral because they were certain he was damned; however, if Kennedy had EVER asked Christ to be his Lord and Savior he was saved with no possibility of losing his salvation under the "once saved, always saved" theory.
In fact, under the "once saved, always saved" doctrine every person who asks the Lord for salvation and subsequently goes on to be a genocidal dictator, serial killer, abortionist, rapist or whatever is saved for all eternity; conversly, if someone like Mother Teresa never uttered the exact phrase that satisfies the KJV-only crowd than she is damned.
So, what did Jesus Christ actually have to say on this matter?:
[21] Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
-- Matthew 7:21-23____________________
[16] And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? [17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [20] The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?
[21] Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. [22] And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. [23] Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. [24] And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. [25] And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?
[26] And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible. [27] Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? [28] And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [29] And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. [30] And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first.
-- Matthew 19:16-30____________________
[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
-- Matthew 25:31-46
And in closing, since the "once saved, always saved" crowd is so fond of their [mis]interpretations of the Apostle Paul, how is it that they are somehow more sure of their salvation than the Apostle was of his own?:
[11] And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father. [12] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. [13] For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. [14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world.
-- Philippians 2:11-15____________________
[2] Bear ye one another's burdens; and so you shall fulfill the law of Christ. [3] For if any man think himself to be some thing, whereas he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. [4] But let every one prove his own work, and so he shall have glory in himself only, and not in another. [5] For every one shall bear his own burden.
-- Galatians 6:2-5____________________
But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
-- 1 Corinthians 9:27
I’m guessing metmom was trying to make a gross taxonomical division of the great bulk of non-Catholic outfits, rather than an exhaustive or comprehensive grouping.
I have to say I share her impression that the larger non-Catholic Trinitarian groups seem to have wrestled the question of will and grace almost exclusively.
Absolutely, I am saved. I am seated in heavenly places in Christ. I am saved, sanctified, justified, and sealed unto the day of redemption.Cocky and dangerous; and why do you quote so much Scripture? ... do you not believe others know Him as well? (I follow along via my missal every day at Mass -- reading 1, responsorial, gospel -- and I can't tell you how distracting it would be if the passages were filled with intermittent caps -- even NON-CATHOLICS would NOT care for THAT).
From “Catholic Encyclopedia”
“The feast of Maundy (or Holy) Thursday solemnly commemorates the institution of the Eucharist and is the oldest of the observances peculiar to Holy Week. In Rome various accessory ceremonies were early added to this commemoration, namely the consecration of the holy oils and the reconciliation of penitents, ceremonies obviously practical in character and readily explained by the proximity of the Christian Easter and the necessity of preparing for it. Holy Thursday could not but be a day of liturgical reunion since, in the cycle of movable feasts, it brings around the anniversary of the institution of the Liturgy. On that day, whilst the preparation of candidates was being completed, the Church celebrated the Missa chrismalis of which we have already described the rite (see HOLY OILS) and, moreover, proceeded to the reconciliation of penitents. In Rome everything was carried on in daylight, whereas in Africa on Holy Thursday the Eucharist was celebrated after the evening meal, in view of more exact conformity with the circumstances of the Last Supper. Canon 24 of the Council of Carthage dispenses the faithful from fast before communion on Holy Thursday, because, on that day, it was customary take a bath, and the bath and fast were considered incompatible. St. Augustine, too, speaks of this custom (Ep. cxviii ad Januarium, n. 7); he even says that as certain persons did not fast on that day, the oblation was made twice, morning and evening, and in this way those who did not observe the fast could partake of the Eucharist after the morning meal, whilst those who fasted awaited the evening repast.
Holy Thursday was taken up with a succession of ceremonies of a joyful character. the baptism of neophytes, the reconciliation of penitents, the consecration of the holy oils, the washing of the feet, and commemoration of the Blessed Eucharist, and because of all these ceremonies, the day received different names, all of which allude to one or another of solemnities.
Redditio symboli was so called because, before being admitted to baptism, the catechumens had to recite the creed from memory, either in the presence of the bishop or his representative.
Pedilavium (washing of the feet), traces of which are found in the most ancient rites, occurred in many churches on Holy Thursday, the capitilavium (washing of the head) having taken place on Palm Sunday (St. Augustine, “Ep. cxviii, cxix”, e. 18).
Exomologesis, and reconciliation of penitents: letter of Pope Innocent I to Decentius of Gubbio, testifies that in Rome it was customary “quinta feria Pascha” to absolve penitents from their mortal and venial sins, except in cases of serious illness which kept them away from church (Labbe, “Concilia” II, col. 1247; St. Ambrose, “Ep. xxxiii ad Marcellinam”). The penitents heard the Missa pro reconciliatione paenitentium, and absolution was given them before the offertory. The “Sacramentary” of Pope Gelasius contains an Ordo agentibus publicam poenitentiam (Muratori, “Liturgia romana vetus”, I, 548-551).
Olei exorcizati confectio. In the fifth century the custom was established of consecrating on Holy Thursday all the chrism necessary for the anointing of the newly baptized. The “Comes Hieronymi”, the Gregorian and Gelasian sacramentaries and the “Missa ambrosiana” of Pamelius, all agree upon the confection of the chrism on that day, as does also the “Ordo romanus I”.
Anniversarium Eucharistiae. The nocturnal celebration and the double oblation early became the object of increasing disfavour, until in 692 the Council of Trullo promulgated a formal prohibition. The Eucharistic celebration then took place in the morning, and the bishop reserved a part of the sacred species for the communion of the morrow, Missa praesanctificatorum (Muratori, “Liturg. rom. Vetus”, II, 993).
Other observances. On Holy Thursday the ringing of bells ceases, the altar is stripped after vespers, and the night office is celebrated under the name of Tenebræ.”
Excellent post, wagglebee.
“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.” (Rom. 4:4).
God becomes a debtor to those who work for their salvation? I think NOT. How would [ANY THINKING SOUL] like to present God with a bill for [THEIR] works, with payment from Him being your salvation?
I can hear the [having them in derision] as the trap door to hell opens.
How about a mental exercise. A" What Would God Do" sort of exercise.
Scenario One: small voice is saved. But if small voice doesn't walk in works, small voice's salvation can be lost.
Satan the accuser to God: "Well sv may be saved. But the only reason sv works for You is because of the fear of losing eternal life with You. What kind of freedom is that? working out of fear, big deal. Anyone would work hard if they were afraid of losing that finished work that Jesus Christ did for them. Hardly a surprise...."
Scenario Two: small voice is saved. And secure in that salvation. God has freed sv from the curse of the law, and He meant what He said:For by grace are ye saved through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." He has freed us unto good works, without fear of losing our salvation.
Satan the accuser to God: "..."....."
Don't you see? If we are free, the accuser has nothing to accused us of before God. Even if the accuser got desperate the worst he could come up with would be "Look at sv. What a lousy job of works. You call those works? Why save someone like that? Why not take back that gift you gave? It's worthless, obviously."
He could accuse day and night, but it would get him nowhere. Because he knows that the gift is secure. His rantings are useless and pointless.
The accuser is left with nothing but empty accusations.
The Lord used me to help implement footwashing as part of a final event at the Tres Dias retreats/weekends in Taipei.
It persistently was mentioned in the closura as the or one of the most impactful times of the whole weekend.
Breaking through the pride to humility is a great thing.
The only ones who seem not to know are the very ones who THINK they can do something to impress God. The very definition of vanity. I can. I will. I..I..I..
There aren’t enough scriptures in the world to show someone who thinks they can that they can’t. It only takes one. Or an infinite number. Depending on the size of the vanity mirror.
INDEED.
Sooooo . . . the relatively small difference in divorce statistics RC vs Proddy is something to crow a LOT about?
y’all are incredible.
Certainly that was the understanding between my husband, myself and the Presbyterian pastor who married us.
When Roman Catholics have no argument, they make one up.
I wonder what is worse in the eyes of God? A divorce or a Vatican-sanctioned “annulment” 20 years and three children after the marriage was performed?
What hypocrites.
INDEED.
Naw.
Not doable . . . that kind of understanding . . . because they keep moving the goal posts every time a new rationalization or double standard is needed.
I’m curious . . .
is a REFERENCE to a foot washing
worth 1/10th of a foot washing or a tenth of one percent of a foot washing
or
1/4th, half or what?
I’m curious . . . does the pastoral staff wash all the feet in the congregation that day?
We had an outreach and big dinner thing for homeless and other people.
I set up a ‘booth’ to wash their feet and given them new socks. I had a sign that they couldn’t have the new socks without having their feet washed.
Only 3 people took advantage of it.
One was a Native American woman who was deeply mangled in a list of ways. And her feet were similarly . . . experienced. These were folks who were more or less off the street or from the shelter. They did not wash their feet beforehand like tends to happen in churches when it’s known ahead of time.
The woman fiercely wanted the socks. It was almost more than she could handle having her feet washed but she was determined to endure it for the socks. We both had our socks blessed off.
Holy Spirit was THERE. It was SUCH a precious time.
She has been coming to services and has made steady progress in her life. She’s been reading wonderful books and we insured right away that she had a new Bible.
I gave her a handful of new socks.
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