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To: kosta50; xzins; count-your-change; Quix; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg
AG, I understand what the author of John's Gospel is trying to say by using the present indicative "I am" instead of past tense. Nevertheless, it does not suggest that he existed before creation; just Moses. And the Pharisees were angry with him for saying he lived before Moses did and yet he is not even 50 years old, and not because they thought he was saying he existed before all creation.

LOLOL! Jesus testifying that he was alive before Abraham was born would have meant He was about 2,000 years old in a physical, time-bound sense.

There is no way these empiricists ("I can only trust my physical senses and reasoning") would have understood Jesus to mean that He was physically 2,000 years old.

The issue was not new in John 8. Just a few chapters earlier:

The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? – John 6:41-42

To borrow a page from xzins, the Gospel of John flatly states that Jesus is God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

And again,

I and [my] Father are one. – John 10:30

And again,

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. – John 17:5

Truly, one would have to eliminate every writing attributed to John and Paul to claim that Scriptures do not testify that Jesus Christ is God.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

And again, to borrow the point xzins was making earlier:

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. – John 8:58

I perceive nature itself reacting to those simple words, I AM, spoken by the Creator of "all that there is." Again, from the Gospel of John:

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. – John 18:6

And again,

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. – Luke 19:40

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. – Romans 8:22

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3

God’s Name is I AM.

447 posted on 07/11/2010 10:30:30 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; kosta50; betty boop; count-your-change
I perceive nature itself reacting to those simple words, I AM, spoken by the Creator of "all that there is." Again, from the Gospel of John: As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. – John 18:6

Thank you, sister, it is another of those verses that clearly demonstrates that John is BUILDING a case. The "I am" causes a "power struck" reaction. The "I am" causes an attempted stoning that is followed by a mysterious slipping away.

It is just beyond credulity to maintain that this was not connected to Exodus 3:14 (particularly to the part b summation in Exodus 3:14.)

Of all the New Testament writers, John uses a consistent array of words across his gospel, his letters, and his apocalypse....The Word, linen, name, etc.

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

449 posted on 07/11/2010 10:43:54 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it. Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Alamo-Girl

ABSOLUTELY INDEED. GREAT STRAIGHTFORWARD BIBLICAL TRUTHS.


463 posted on 07/11/2010 12:46:57 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Alamo-Girl; xzins; count-your-change; Quix; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg
LOLOL! Jesus testifying that he was alive before Abraham was born would have meant He was about 2,000 years old in a physical, time-bound sense.

LOL indeed. You find that hard to believe but not, for example Elijah, Jonah or a talking donkey? Interesting.

There is no way these empiricists ("I can only trust my physical senses and reasoning") would have understood Jesus to mean that He was physically 2,000 years old.

I don't think the Pharisees were empiricists.

The issue was not new in John 8. Just a few chapters earlier

Of course not. John's entire Gospel is aimed at showing how the Jews conspired against him, had no clue what their religion was all about and that Jesus was the Jehovah. 

To borrow a page from xzins, the Gospel of John flatly states that Jesus is God

Of course he does, and for a good reason. That was the whole purpose, historically and theologically, needed at the time of the writing.

And again, I and [my] Father are one. – John 10:30

Wonderful, what about "my Father is greater than I"? (same John, different chapter)

Truly, one would have to eliminate every writing attributed to John

No one is trying to do that. Maybe you decided to jump into this discussion without reading what was written previously, but denying that John was doing his best to create a hellenized God out  Jesus was not one of the topics.

[Before Abraham was, I am] I perceive nature itself reacting to those simple words, I AM, spoken by the Creator of "all that there is."

Not anywhere in the Bible. God never says anything like that. He says "I will be what I am becoming" or "I am the Existence" in Hebrew and Greek versions of Exodus 3:14. Jesus only claims he was around before Moses.

 

470 posted on 07/11/2010 8:04:17 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Nice Tour de Force, A-G.

No need for me to come in and put my foot in it at *all*. :-)

Cheers!

1,633 posted on 07/22/2010 9:26:14 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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