Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Alamo-Girl; Buggman; xzins; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Zionist Conspirator; wagglebee; Mad Dawg
That issue is not as simple and straightforward as you try to portray it. Rather, exhaustive readings show that lots of 'harmonization' took place over the centuries in Christian as well as Jewish interpretations. You quote a minuscule segment form the Jewish Encyclopedia, which is itself a way of skewing the issue, never mind the ocean of other sources that exist on this subject.

Likewise, John 8:58 is not without its own problems and variants. Some manuscripts show the verse in the past tense (I was) rather than in present imperfect (I am being). To use only one of myriad examples, Jason BeDuhn and Robert M. Bowman (2004-2005) debated this at length, and BeDuhn writes the following (emphasis added; also text in [] is my interpolation):

Thus, we have translational and contextual issues here, which have been "harmonized" over the centuries. The fact that Onkelos Targums retain the Ehyeh-Asher-Ehye in the (Hebrew) original is irrelevant, as its pronunciation and substitution in reading varied over time and language (Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.), and the perceived meaning changed from one rabbi to another. Thus we have issues not only with the Ehyeh-Asher-Ehye but with John 8:58 and the much controversial ego eimi phrase.

In fact, ego eimi (which is a simply "I am") appears all over the New Testament and is never confused with the name of God. But in the Septuagint version of the Exodus 3:14 God is quoted as saying "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν" (ego eimi ho on), that is I am the Being/Existence. It is the ho on that is missing in John 8:58, which is why there is reason to think something is not kosher with this verse. The ho on (Ο ΩΝ) is the equivalent of the Hebrew tetragrammaton (YHWH) which is why it appears on most icons of Jesus in his halo of later years.

But, as noted, the early church fathers did not make a connection between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14. The ho on was missing in the former. So, no matter how you turn it around, what Jesus says in John 8:58 doe snot correspond to Hebrew Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, not to the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14.

406 posted on 07/10/2010 9:46:05 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 405 | View Replies ]


To: kosta50

doe snot=does not


407 posted on 07/10/2010 9:47:40 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 406 | View Replies ]

To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; Frumanchu; betty boop; marron
54Jesus answered, `If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who is glorifying me, of whom ye say that He is your God; 55and ye have not known Him, and I have known Him, and if I say that I have not known Him, I shall be like you -- speaking falsely; but I have known Him, and His word I keep; 56Abraham, your father, was glad that he might see my day; and he saw, and did rejoice.' 57The Jews, therefore, said unto him, `Thou art not yet fifty years old, and Abraham hast thou seen?' 58Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming -- I am;' 59they took up, therefore, stones that they may cast at him, but Jesus hid himself, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Alamo-girl's interpretation is simply backed up by the context. The leaders' reaction to Jesus' words, and the words themselves, suggest Jesus intentionally provoked them.

And then we have the man born blind story of chapter 9:

35Jesus heard that they cast him forth without, and having found him, he said to him, `Dost thou believe in the Son of God?' 36he answered and said, `Who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?' 37And Jesus said to him, `Thou hast both seen him, and he who is speaking with thee is he;' 38and he said, `I believe, sir,' and bowed before him.

Jesus received WORSHIP from a man who had believed Jesus' own words about HIS being the Son of God.

"I AM" indeed.

408 posted on 07/10/2010 10:01:11 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it. Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 406 | View Replies ]

To: kosta50; betty boop; TXnMA; Buggman; xzins; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Zionist Conspirator; ...
Thank you for sharing your concerns and insights, dear kosta50!

But please remember that you and I come from polar opposite epistemological positions (how we know what we know and how certain we are that we know it.)

The revelations of God - as in the Torah and indeed all of Scripture - are certain to me. A thing is true because God said it.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. - Psalms 33:6

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3

This is why God cannot lie. When He says a thing, it is. Time is irrelevant. No thing and no one can thwart the will of God.

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; - Titus 1:2

Again, time is part of the creation, not a property of, or restriction on, the Creator of it.

In the beginning - Genesis 1, John 1 The opinions of experts, historical figures and even my brothers and sisters in Christ are moot by comparison to the words of God.

And before someone suggests that the Scriptures are merely the words of historical figures, I testify here and now that the words of God are alive, they are spirit and life. The words of men are not and thus we know the difference.

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

The natural man cannot discern the difference.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Cor 2:14

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

That anyone would think of God as time-bound is amusing to me and that view expressed as a restriction on a Name of God, all the more so.

Likewise, that the early Church fathers did not discern the connection between these passages is irrelevant to me.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. – Revelation 1:8

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. – John 8:58

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. – John 18:6

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

And these as well:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1

These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, - Genesis 2:4

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

Man is not the measure of God.

God's Name is Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh which is to say in my native language, His proper Name is I AM.

Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. – Psalms 91:4

Hallowed be thy name...

409 posted on 07/10/2010 10:32:47 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 406 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson