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To: kosta50; count-your-change
in order for one to believe he or she must receive the Spirit (i.e. be spiritually baptized, be born from above), first, right?

That is correct. And while I suspect your advocacy of this correct Scriptural position is somewhat supercilious (a thousand pardons if that's not the case) the natural man, left on his own, is simply the son of his first father, Adam, fallen and incapable of righteousness or of pleasing God.

A man must first be born again by the Holy Spirit to know the things of God, as John spends a lot of time telling us. Then, and only then, will we be able to feel sorrow for our sins, repent of them, work to sin no more and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, God and Savior. And that is because those who have been born again by the Spirit have been justified by Christ's sacrifice; they have been given new eyes and new ears and a heart of flesh and a renewed mind, all of which makes up the spiritual man who then, and only then, will believe to the saving of his soul.

Salvation is of the Lord through grace and grace alone. Salvation is not payment for any free will "correct answers." It is a gift, freely given by God to whom He will, according to mercy and not debt. Read Ephesians 1.

Thus the correct Christian perspective is gratitude. Period. Gratitude. Gratitude. Gratitude.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Phil. 2:13

1,201 posted on 07/19/2010 10:47:40 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; count-your-change

Kosta: in order for one to believe he or she must receive the Spirit (i.e. be spiritually baptized, be born from above), first, right?

Dr. E: That is correct. And while I suspect your advocacy of this correct Scriptural position is somewhat supercilious (a thousand pardons if that's not the case) the natural man, left on his own, is simply the son of his first father, Adam, fallen and incapable of righteousness or of pleasing God.

I am simply reiterating what I understand to be the reformed (possibly only Calvinist) view of this issue. In short, one must be alive before one can do anything. He who is dead can do nothing, even repent.

So, in order to repent one must be regenerated, i.e. spiritually re-animated into faith, so that one can repent. In order to repent one must realize his fall which cannot be realized without faith.

Baptism does nothing except serve as the outward manifsestation, or witness to that faith and repentance through faith.

But not all Bible-believing Christains see it that way. Thye argue that whenever repentance is mentioned in connection to toher factors, repentance is listed first. So, there is a serious theological split among Bible-believing Christians on that issue. I will admit that the Calvinist view makes more sense, but the opposite view is Biblically closer.

1,205 posted on 07/19/2010 3:36:38 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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