You may be distressed that no Catholic made the kind of profession of faith in Christ that would suit you. I hope you get that, on our side, there's a certain sense of outrage in being essentially accused by the post at the head of this thread -- Here! Explain THIS, if you can -- and then criticized because we did not all leap to the task of finding words to suit our challengers.
The first temptation is to tell you all -- ALL -- to take a flying leap. And this is especially true because of the certainty that a few on either side use members of the other side as punching bags and because while the nature of almost any good conversation about difficult things requires patience and good will, one can be assured here that very little effort will be made to understand what we say.
The temptation to strut around disparaging the other side is just too great.
You ask:
IF you saw some hideous idolatry, blasphemy that you believed/perceived me or my congregation or Pentecostalism in general to be chronically caught up in . . .
Do you honestly believe I would resist with great hostility and self-righteous affrontedness your ministrations to alert me to such and persuade me away from such?
Maybe not you yourself, but I would bet all I have that there are plenty here who would respond with unwavering and intense hostility to any such suggestion.
I do recall that in this thread someone made some comment about the Holy Spirit guiding the Church and was called arrogant for his pains.
It's not so much the constant insult and derogation, combined with immensely sloppy arguing, as it is the sense of futility.
Were I to see some dreadful thing going on in your congregation -- and don't forget that my being a Catholic implies that I think you are inflicting a hardship on yourself by not being Catholic, I would try to establish some kind of trust and to get to a place where I thought real conversation would take place. If I had not taken the trouble to establish credibility, if I had not been prudent, but rather had just stood around and yelled at you, I would consider myself to have indulged myself at the expense of my hearers.
If the folks can walk away still caring for each other with Christ’s Love, and with increased understanding between them, that’s sufficient for me.
I think a lot of the thin-skinned sensitivity about intense emotions and other such stuff is a sign of chronic insecurity, self-righteous arrogance, !!!!
Well, you see? My retort to the suggestion that I am thin-skinned and arrogant (for such it is, whatever you meant it to be) is to say that I think it self-indulgent to abuse people with whom one disagrees and the excuse the ineffectiveness of the approach by calling them thin-skinned. Is the task before us to live together in charity or is it to find suitable names to call those with whom we disagree?
Serious questions: Why should I care what some people think of my religious beliefs? I am confident that the Catholic Church is "the true Church" pretty much in the sense that that was explained in Dominus Iesus. The very things that your side uses as arguments against that proposition seem to me to confirm it. The responses to arguments -- unimaginative, poorly argued, misdirected -- confirm me in my opinions and prompt me to prayer. Every time the non-Catholics start up another one of the endless cycles of disparagement I am assured that such persistent hostility is not a matter of flesh and blood, but of principalities, powers, world rulers (in the demonic sense) of this present darkness, and the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
So, 1000 silverlings asks why we disobey Christ? I'll be sure to answer as soon as he tells me when he stopped beating his wife. That little exchange is a fine example, (no offense, I'm increasingly persuaded that a lot of this is unintended) of what I mean.
There are PLENTY of interpretations of Mary's words to the servants who drew the water made wine. To seize upon one and to use it as a cheap attempt to score rhetorical points is maybe something that impresses lurkers. To me it's just jejune.
The repeated, stylized, almost kabuki-like observations that after years of careful study, deliberation, thought, and prayer, somebody has concluded -- surprise surprise! -- that the Catholic religion is an unmitigated disaster ... Fine. Whatever. One way or another we'll all know in 100 years.
I will certainly continue to intercede for you all and to ask the Mother of God to join me in my prayers. If anybody who has given careful study, deliberation, thought, and prayer to this thread thinks it is going anywhere useful, is building up rather than tearing down, I'd be interested in reading those thoughts.
My perception is that not one new argument has been made for or against devotion to the Mother of God. So I'm left wondering what the goals and objectives are here.
Any interpretations beyond the fact that she was just ordering the servants to do something is reading way more into it than the context warrants.
It occurred to me one day that since weddings in those days were family affairs, Jesus was most probably at a relative's wedding. Perhaps Mary just came to Him with this problem because it was her family's responsibility to host the wedding, just like today it's the bride's family's responsibility to host the wedding. He did that one miracle, which I'm not positive in the least that Mary had any idea He would do, and moved on from there.
Making a whole doctrine of how Jesus cannot refuse His Mother's requests out of that one incident is ludicrous. There is no teaching by any writer of the NT so support that, as I would expect if it were really a spiritual truth.
From there He went on as far as to almost snub His mother, as is recorded in THREE of the Gospels when His family came looking for Him.
The Catholic Church simply cannot justify its Mary doctrines and teachings from Scripture.
Anybody's all should be given to Christ and Christ alone. Not Mary. Not the saints. Not the pope. Not the church.
When any of those are added to the mix, one is not giving one's all to Christ. One's heart is divided. If Christ is not first in one's life, Christ is not Lord of one's life.
There are so many things in this post that are true—and true also for me even as you express yourself.
“..take a flying leap”. Yes, I have experienced that temptation as well.
“...criticized because we did not all leap to the task of finding words to suit our challengers” Yep—been there.
“...very little effort will be made to understand what we say.” Yep
“The temptation to strut around disparaging the other side is just too great.” It certainly seems so. It’s something that I’ve made every effort not to do, following the counsel of “do unto others....”
“It’s not so much the constant insult and derogation....as it is the sense of futility” True. That’s why I don’t respond (anymore) to some posters, nor do I read their posts anymore, all the while exercising my right to be part of the forum.
“...I think it self-indulgent to abuse people with whom one disagrees and then excuse the ineffectiveness of the approach by calling them thin-skinned.” I agree that some posts actually are verbally abusive; and/or they are cuttingly sarcastic all the while trying to parade as some sort of twisted humor.
And now for the sake of brevity:
“I am confident the Catholic Church is the ‘true Church” “ Yes
“...arguments against that proposition seem to me to confirm it” Yes
“...prompt me to prayer” Yes
“...endless cycles of disparagement” Yes
“...not one new argument has been made” True
“I’m left wondering what the goals and objectives are here” Yes
Heavens to Betsey, I found so many things to agree with in this post.
While I already know the perils of making an “opus”, I am certainly convinced—now—that there are many reasons and a certain genre of postings here that have slowly turned me away from believing in the efficacy of these sort of exchanges. And it has informed me, to my surprise, just how many truly anti-Catholic people there are and how easily the put-downs and disparagements and hostility can be framed as their duty in the Lord to “save us”.
I am Catholic. I am Roman Catholic. I am grateful to be Catholic. I belong to the Lord and He has me in His Sacred Hands. That is sufficient for me.
Thanks for your post, MD
Welllllllllllllllll,
I think I understand to a major degree your thinking and your feelings.
I would much prefer much more . . . middle ground . . . and collegial dialogue. Probably alone, you and I could manage such.
And, I think I have managed such in my responses to you, on the whole. I have sure tried.
Personally, I think there have been some new things asserted in this thread. Not, I think, on your side—except some in your own posts, sadly.
Dialogue across intensely held opposing religious/spirital boundaries is always likely to be tedius and problematic. That’s nothing new. It’s probably one of the most characteristic things about such dialogues. And it’s probably one of the most tedious, problematic things in life.
I don’t per se routinely blame folks for bowing out if they feel that’s their priority from God. I’m persistently tempted myself and occasionally do.
However, I believe that the issues are important and worthy of intensity, tedious persistence, dogged tenacity, enduring faithfulness etc. etc.
We do differ regarding style and tone. For me, fierce style and tone are not per se offensive even when directed at me. Even a LOT of harsh personal assaultiveness directed at me is not all THAT offensive. A lot of it is humorous and kind of weakly pathetic more than offensive.
Christ bore a LOT more in my behalf.
I also know that, FOR ME, the intensity of the dialogue sort of conotes, to me, a degree of its importance to the participants. I find that INVIGORATING—ENLIVENING. I’d RATHER discuss things that people feel passionately about. And hostility is just one expression of passionate feelings.
I also come from a heritage, I’m just realizing anew typing this post, wherein my close ancestors and relatives automatically TENDED TO DISTRUST communications that were toooo polite and kosher in conventional social graces oooey-goooey warm fuzzy ways.
The rough and tumble of intense brazen candid dialogue was always seen somehow as MUCH MORE TRUSTWORTHY, HONEST, REAL.
I’m sure a LOT of that value is deeply ingrained in me and all my sensibilities about communication in spite of all the PhD hoopla, training and experiences.
With those biased eyes, I tend to see Christ and Paul and even Peter communciating a lot from a similar mind-set and set of priorities, values.
I’ve grown up in Pentecostalism. As you might guess, or know, Pentecostals take a LOT OF HEAT from virtually everyone.
The junk I’ve taken hereon as a Pentecostal—most harshly from some Roman Catholics et al is just a microcosim of 63 years.
If there’s something I can learn in even the harshest criticism, I try to learn it, by God’s Grace and Spirit, and go on. If not, I usually can, by His Grace, manage to lay it aside, fairly quickly. It certainly doesn’t cause me to lose any sleep. I’m secure in the Biblical foundations for what I know and certainly also secure in God’s acting out HIS PENTECOSTAL STUFF IN MY LIFE year in and year out.
So all that is largely unassailable regardless of what anyone says or how harshly they say it. At some point, it’s mostly water off a duck.
I find myself withholding a candid observation about a part of this thread and perspective. I don’t know if I’ll even share it by FREEPMAIL. That’s sad to me. I think it’s a spiritually important observation, sense. I just don’t think you’d have any . . . availability to hear it.
And, given that your eyes/ears are evidently already bloody, I have no interest in slamming something hard to hear into them further—at the moment! LOL.
I do not think such threads are a waste or futile.
Certainly lurkers on all sides and in the middle have increasing fodder to prayerfully ponder. I see that as a good thing—almost regardless.
And, in spite of all of us . . . we ARE being refined and fashioned in the process one way or the other. And if our hearts and minds are focused on God properly—that can only turn out good.
For those who are authentic Believers on either side, HE HAS PROMISED TO WORK ALL SUCH THINGS TO OUR GOOD and I think that includes to our spiritual growth.
My 2 cents.
LUBBRO.