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To: roamer_1

So, is the Church wrong? Should we call priests “Father”? Perhaps Saint Paul can help us here. In his first letter to the Corinthians, he says:

“I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me.” (1Cor 4:14-16)

Be imitators of him? But he calls himself Father Paul! In fact, he goes on in verse 17 to say:

“For this reason I am sending you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord; he will remind you of my ways in Christ, just as I teach them everywhere in every church.” (1Cor 4:17)

His son? Is this just Saint Paul being difficult to understand? Well, he refers to Saints Timothy and Titus as his true children (1Tim 1:2 and Tit 1:4) and even refers to one individual as “my child Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment.” (Philemon 10). Seems pretty clear he is referring to himself as a FATHER.


188 posted on 04/30/2010 4:47:43 PM PDT by johngrace
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To: johngrace
Hey, I thought Paul was the crazy one whose writings should be interpreted in the light of the Gospels.

Are you telling me that the RC misinterpretation of that verse by Paul supersedes the teaching of Jesus Himself that we are to call no man *Father*.

Matthew 23: 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

192 posted on 04/30/2010 4:54:19 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: johngrace
So, is the Church wrong?

Yes. Horribly so.

Should we call priests “Father”?

No. In fact, y'all shouldn't even have priests.

Be imitators of him? But he calls himself Father Paul!

He did not call himself "Father Paul." He said he had fathered spiritual offspring.

His son? Is this just Saint Paul being difficult to understand? [...] Seems pretty clear he is referring to himself as a FATHER.

He certainly is alluding to a spiritual progeny, but that is a very far cry from accepting an honorary title which Christ Himself spoke against.

In fact, the whole of 1 Cor 4 speaks against what you have proposed, and Paul states exactly that what he is speaking of about himself is figurative:

1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

What he is speaking of does hearken back to Jesus words in Matt 23... He (Paul) says TO imitate himself because he does walk the walk (1 Cor 4:10-16), as opposed to the Pharisees in Matt 23:3-8.

But in that, he is showing himself to be the polar opposite of those Pharisees, and would certainly oppose being called "Rabbi" or "Father," as Matt 23 declares unquestionably.

To prove your point, you would have to find someone actually calling him "Father Paul," which you will not be able to do, as it is against the very words of Christ.

It is foolhardy to try to bend a figurative treatise against the declared word of Christ.

264 posted on 04/30/2010 6:25:06 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: johngrace

Sounds like you are insisting that Paul violated Christ’s orders.

I don’t believe he did, regardless of your slippery rationalizations.


345 posted on 04/30/2010 8:56:31 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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