Posted on 12/26/2009 3:23:12 PM PST by Teófilo
It's conditional. Besides, using in part Jeremiah, the author of Hebrews 8:6, 13, Heb 9 suggests otherwise.
God makes many covenants (with Noah, Abraham, with Moses, with David, with Job, Ps 50:5 says God makes covenant with individuals who offer him sacrifice, with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, and then a separate one with the house of Israel, a new government at the Last Supper, etc.) and in Hebrew 8 it declared that Old Covenant was not eternal (although, of course, the Bible contradicts itself on that too).
But where does it say that Jesus is that same God? Jesus says he is lesser than the Father? [Jn 14:28]; Paul says there is but one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ [1 Co 8:6] and that the head of Christ is God [1 Co 11:3].
As a Jew you can't believe in more than one God. God in Judaism doesn't have a divine Son and his spirit is just his power, not his equal.
I don't know if you have seen a Jewish liturgy in a synagogue; it's nothing even close to the Orthodox divine liturgy. As for the Temple, there is no similarity either, Kolo. That would really be stretching it! Jewish Temple worship was pagan in every way.
I really don't know where that Jewish colleague of yours was worshiping but I would be curious to know.
I agree. And no Orthodox Christian would say that Judaism is just a different perception of the same underlying reality as Christianity. I did not understand Theo to be saying that.
I am open to an explanation, but what Teófilo said sounded pretty clear to me – a different perception of the same underlying reality, Kolo.
Indeed they do. Maybe Christ doesn’t leave them out.
I don't know, Kolo, the Gospels are pretty clear that those who don't are the goats. That's what the Church taught for 2,000 years until the age of political correctness. You think the Church could have been wrong all these millennia?
In fact, Christ calls the unbelieving Jews the sons of the devil! Do you think he really didn't mean it? It seems to me the age of all-nclusiveness and ecumenism has changed what the Church thought was clear as a bell for 2,000 years.
Why, didn't the Church even proclaim by an Ecumenical Council (I believe maybe the VI) that Christians were not allowed to choose Jewish doctors? Do you think the Church didn't understand her won scripture? Or that perhaps the the Holy Spirit guiding the Council didn't really mean it?
John 3:8. Like I said, above my pay grade.
Kolo, it is sad but John 3 is as phony as a $3 bill. Read the verses before and after John 3:8 and tell they are in some kind of a sequence. John's Gospel is full of unrelated out of context interpolations that characterize the whole Gospl (i.e. verse 11 starts off in the singular and continues in the plural, and verse 13 is post-ascentional before ascention!). And John 3 stands out as the phoniest, especially vis a vis that anothen pun in verse 3 that could have never happened in Aramaic, never mind that Nicodemus' reaction is strange even in Greek.
On another note, I've read various opinions of Christianity being the “New Israel” but I am not at all convinced nor comfortable with the idea. I see some here relate to this...for me it brings confusion and a host of complicated issues, and distracts from the centrality of Christ.
"New Israel" smacks of supersessionism All credit goes to the Spirit of G-d.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Who are you to judge what anyone else believes ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Many, many, many times, Kosta. The Greeks and the Jews here experienced a very similar immigrant experience and we kids, Greek and Jewish, had to go to Greek and Hebrew school after American school got out. All the other kids got to play. We attended their festivals and dances, they ours. Our parents grew up together. They came to our devotions, funerals, weddings, etc and we to theirs. We played basketball at the Jewish Community Center. There were three great "powers" in my town. Nothing happened without their OK... the rabbi, the senior Irish Catholic monsignor and the Greek Priest. The rabbi was just about my grandfather's best friend. I, like all the Greek and even Irish kids, almost grew up at the temple. I'll tell you, Kosta, any of us, to this day, are very comfortable at the temple. When you hear a cantor chant the psalms, don't you think immediately of Great Vespers and Great Week?
I don't know, Kolo, the Gospels are pretty clear that those who don't are the goats. That's what the Church taught for 2,000 years until the age of political correctness. You think the Church could have been wrong all these millennia?
Blessed Augustine taught, who knows:
"How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within! [The Church]?", Kosta. +Peter says:
"Truly I perceive God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him" at Acts 10:34-35. Above our pay grade, Kosta.
"In fact, Christ calls the unbelieving Jews the sons of the devil!"
No doubt the unbelieving Jews were.
"Why, didn't the Church even proclaim by an Ecumenical Council (I believe maybe the VI) that Christians were not allowed to choose Jewish doctors?"
Indeed a council did, the Quinisext not the 6th. We call it Ecumenical. The West doesn't. The purpose of such a restriction, and others, was to prevent conversion to Judaism, which was a real or imagined problem at the time."
"Kolo, it is sad but John 3 is as phony as a $3 bill."
Kosta, +Ignatius of Antioch, John's disciple, apparently didn't think so:
"For though some would have deceived me according to the flesh, yet the Spirit, as being from God, is not deceived. For it knows both whence it comes and whither it goes."
That's what Judaism says, not I.
That's what Judaism says, not I.
You are referring to Rabbinism,
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
the tradition of men,
since the days of the Pharisees.
Kolo, I hate to disagree with you, believe me, but the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. The Jews gather in synagogues where no offering is made. There is no Jewish temple anywhere.
Blessed Augustine taught, who knows: How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!
Matthew 25 says otherwise. Not all are included. John doesn't think so either. You have to eat his body and drink his blood in order to have life everlasting, Kolo. And there is much more...
Truly I perceive God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him"
He shows no partiality except for those who fear him, Kolo? That seems pretty partial to me, don't you think?
The purpose of such a restriction, and others, was to prevent conversion to Judaism, which was a real or imagined problem at the time."
Why? Was there any real tendency, even "danger" (in 692 AD!) for Christians to convert to a hated religion en masse? Somehow that seems a little hyperbolic, Kolo. Sorry.
Kosta, +Ignatius of Antioch, John's disciple, apparently didn't think so: "For though some would have deceived me according to the flesh, yet the Spirit, as being from God, is not deceived. For it [sic] knows both whence it comes and whither it goes."
Ignatius doesn't even quote form John. By all accounts he wasn't even aware John wrote anything. In fact he quotes only from Gospel according to Matthew, Luke, Acts, Romans, I Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, and I Thessalonians.
Anyway, the quote you use has nothing to do with John 3. But it does say something about Ignatius' concept of the triune God. He calls the Spirit an "it." Faith once delivered and believed everywhere and always?
“There is no Jewish temple anywhere.”
OK; you undoubtedly understand the Greek/American and Jewish experiebce in America in the 1950s better than I do. No real point in continuing this discussion, is there now!
That is the only legitimate Judaism recognized everywhere in the world.
It says you can't be a Muslim or a Christian and a Jew.
You appear to be so ignorant, that i will not comment.
So ignorant? Ignorance is lack of knowledge. If you are a worshipper of God, it is up to you to fill in the ignorance of fellow worshippers. Unless they demonstrate willful ignorance, in which case you’re off the hook.
LOL! That's pathetic. Unfortunately for you, ignorance on my part is not really your strongest argument.
I stand by my statements. Messianic Judaims is a fringe sect/cult of Christianity, not Judaism.
Ha, ha,ha, ha. Yes. Care to show some examples of OT intimacy with God?
We pray a Psalm every day at daily Mass!
It's a copout. I have yet to see something more than banal biblical one-liners in his arsenal, Mark.
I don't think that it is even that. From what I've seen, they stand alone, isolated. Not Christian and not Jew. A few thousand of them out there kinda floating around.
If one is really interested in the worship of the One God, then one really ought to go out of one's way to enable others to do the same. Unless one is elitist and doesn't want competition.
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