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Perfect Storm? After a quiet summer, clouds gather over Rome...
Inside the Vatican ^ | September 24, 2009 | Robert Moynihan

Posted on 09/24/2009 12:31:05 PM PDT by NYer

A storm is about to be unleashed on the Pope, the Vatican, and, by extension, the Catholic Church.

The first drops of rain have just fallen, with public accusations that the Pope lied this winter in connection with the "Williamson affair." (see below)
 

============================

altWhat is it about?
 
Whether this storm will "blow over," or intensify into a "perfect storm," only time will tell.

But whatever happens, there is this to keep in mind: many, inside and outside of the Church, would like the Church's traditional liturgy, known as the Latin Mass -- the old liturgy celebrated up until 1970, and two years ago designated by Pope Benedict XVI as the "extraordinary rite" of the Mass -- to disappear.
 
And they are irritated that Benedict -- against many and vociferous objections --  "restored" the old liturgy, which many thought had been buried definitively.
 
As strange as it may seem, this battle is in part about that -- about the survival of the Church's old liturgy -- about her way of worshipping God.
 
But when I say this, I do not mean to downplay other, quite obvious concerns, for example, the tense situation in the Middle East, or in the world economy.
 
I mean to say that, on a fundamental level, it is not simply a political or economic battle, as important as political and economic factors are, but a spiritual battle.
 
=============================== 
Is Rome alone?
 
And at a time like this, when many forces in the West (the European Union, the new US administration)  seem to be aligning themselves in favor of a thoroughly secularized "new world order," the ally most helpful to Rome may well be the ally who still celebrates a divine liturgy which has not been modernized: the Orthodox.
 
And the most numerous and powerful of the Orthodox are the Russians.
 
In this perspective, these attacks on the Pope and the Vatican may drive Rome to ally herself, after a thousand years of separation, with Contantinople, and with Moscow -- reuniting the "three Romes"...
 
====================================

The allegation this morning is that Vatican officials (but not the Pope) lied when they said this winter that no one in the Vatican knew about Bishop Richard Williamson's views about the Holocaust when the Pope decided to lift his excommication on January 24.

However, this allegation has been exploited by the Church's current antagonist in Italy, Prime Minsiter Silvio Berlusconi, through his media empire, to suggest that the Pope, too, lied.

Here is the headline being run right now on Google news:
 
Swedish TV: Vatican knew about Holocaust-denier

Here is a link to the entire story:
 
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iSmeUYxiL3cK2bBxxIHl9aTafLoAD9AT13984
 
Here are the first few few paragraphs to give you the gist of what is being said:
 
By KARL RITTER (AP) – 4 hours ago

STOCKHOLM — A Swedish TV program to be aired Wednesday (Note: today) claims that top Vatican officials knew that an ultraconservative British bishop was a Holocaust-denier when his excommunication was lifted in January. The program, which was obtained by The Associated Press prior to broadcast, could add new fuel to the controversy over Bishop Richard Williamson.

Jews and Catholics worldwide were outraged after Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication of Williamson, along with three other ultraconservative bishops, in an attempt to bring dissidents back into the mainstream church.

The order, dated Jan. 21, came as Sweden's SVT aired an interview recorded two months earlier in which Williamson said he didn't believe any Jews were killed in gas chambers during World War II.
Vatican officials have said they didn't know about the interview at the time. Benedict later condemned Williamson's remarks and spoke out against anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.

Yet in a follow-up report, SVT says the Vatican had been informed of Williamson's Holocaust-denial shortly after the interview was recorded in November. It doesn't suggest, however, that the pope knew about the remarks.

The program singles out Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, who had been leading efforts to heal the schism with the ultraconservative Society of St. Pius X. The Vatican announced in July that Castrillon Hoyos was stepping down after reaching the customary retirement age of 80.

The SVT program says Sweden's Catholic diocese informed the apostolic nuncio — the Vatican envoy to Sweden — about Williamson's remarks and that he in turn informed Vatican officials, including Castrillon Hoyos...
 
===================
The Italian Front: "He Lied"

 

The second allegation is that the Pope himself knew.
 
This allegation made headlines today in Italy, where the Catholic Church and the Italian government of Prime Minister Berlusconi have been sparring for months over Berlusconi's immiration policies and his alleged sexual impropriety. This morning, Berlusconi (or those close to him) took the gloves off.
 
alt(Here, in better times, Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi greets Pope Benedict XVI in Cagliari on the Italian island of Sardinia in this September 7, 2008,  photo -- CNS photo/Reuters)
 
For the first time in the many months of acrimony, Berlusconi (or his associates) directly attacked the Pope. This escalates the battle.
 
Il Giornale, a newspaper owned by Berlusconi's family, carried the exaggerated headline "He Lied" ("Ha mentito"), referring to the Pope and his handling of the "Williamson affair."
 
(Below is a photo from three weeks ago of women reading Il Giornale. The Sept. 3 newspaper front page has a picture of Dino Boffo, editor of the Catholic newspaper Avvenire. Boffo resigned from Avvenire, the newspaper of the Italian bishops' conference, in a row that has strained relations between the Vatican and the Italian government -- CNS photo/Stefano Rellandini, Reuters)  
altHere are a few lines from a British newspaper today explaining this story:
 
Silvio Berlusconi turns his guns on Pope Benedict XVI
 
The Italian newspaper Il Giornale, owned by the family of Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi, carries a headline today dominated by the words “Ha mentito” - “he lied”, referring to Pope Benedict XVI. The paper is busy stirring up trouble over the claims by Swedish TV, due to be aired tonight, that the Vatican knew in advance about the Holocaust-denying background of Bishop Richard Williamson before his excommunication was lifted.

The words “he lied” are admittedly taken from the programme. But it’s a malicious allegation: Benedict has told no lies whatsoever regarding this matter, even if Vatican officials working for him have a case to answer.

The background you need to know is that Il Giornale has been engaged in a furious battle with Vatican Radio and the Catholic newspaper Avvenire, whose editor Dino Boffo it forced to resign after claiming he was a homosexual with a police record. Avvenire, not coincidentally, had consistently opposed Berlusconi, with the backing of the Italian Bishops’ Conference.

That struggle, which is part of a left-right, secular-Catholic battle at the heart of Italian society and government, has already damaged relations between the gruesomely oversexed Berlusconi and the Holy Father...

 
Here is a link to the complete article: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100011034/berlusconi-turns-his-guns-on-pope-benedict-xvi/
 
=====================================
 
One consideration is the Italian situation.
 
There isn't space or time here to go into the entire sordid affair. Suffice it to say that a rift between the Vatican and the government of Silvio Berlusconi has now become a chasm.
 
Since the Vatican, humanly speaking, is a tiny state entirely surrounded by Italian territory, it is naturally always a hope of the Vatican to be on close and friendly terms with the Italian government.
 
Therefore, this deteriorating relationship with the Italian governement led by Berlusconi is a real concern.
 
Here is a link to an Associated Press article on the background to this story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090906/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_scandal_3

And here is a link to a Time magazine story on Berlusconi: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1923076,00.html
==============================
 
A second consideration is the relationship of the Vatican to the world Jewish community.
 
The re-emergence of the "Williamson affair" under these circumstances, with new allegations, shows that the "affair" was not settled in March, when the Pope on March 12 issued a dramatic letter of apology to the bishops of the Church.
 
Here are some key lines from that March 12 letter:
 
"An unforeseen mishap for me was the fact that the Williamson case came on top of the remission of the excommunication," the Pope wrote.
 
"I have been told that consulting the information available on the internet would have made it possible to perceive the problem early on. I have learned the lesson that in the future in the Holy See we will have to pay greater attention to that source of news. I was saddened by the fact that even Catholics who, after all, might have had a better knowledge of the situation, thought they had to attack me with open hostility.
 
"Precisely for this reason I thank all the more our Jewish friends, who quickly helped to clear up the misunderstanding and to restore the atmosphere of friendship and trust which – as in the days of Pope John Paul II – has also existed throughout my pontificate and, thank God, continues to exist."
 
(Here is a link to the official tect of that letter: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica_en.html)
 
Will the world Jewish community come to the Pope's defense?
============================  
A third consideration is the relationship between traditional Catholics, now un-excommunicated, and those we may call "conciliar" Catholics.
 
Is this case only about Williamson and his views, or are the "conciliar" Catholics actually unwilling to accept the readmission of "traditionalist" Catholics into communion with Rome, and themselves?
 
In this regard, a question arrises: who is really behind the re-emergence of attacks on the Pope for his January 24 action in un-excommunicating the four Lefebvrist bishops?

It isn't fully clear.

 
But it has been reported in the La Stampa of Milan, Italy, that the Catholic bishop of Stockholm, Anders Arborelius, is in a very cordial relationship with the Swedish TV -- and that he is a firm opponent of the Society of St. Pius X (the SSPX).
 
This report can be found at: http://www.lastampa.it/_web/cmstp/tmplrubriche/giornalisti/grubrica.asp?ID_blog=242&ID_articolo=921&ID_sezione=524&sezione=%20teresa
 
Arborelius said Wednesday in a statement posted on his diocese's website that he was aware of negationist remarks Williamson made to an investigative news program filmed by Swedish public television SVT in November 2008 and which aired on January 21, 2009.

Arborelius wrote: "The content of the interview with Richard Williamson ... was sent to the Vatican in November 2008, forewarning that the program with the Holocaust denial would be broadcast on January 21, 2009.

"We, at the diocese office in Stockholm, as we always do in matters of the Church, had forwarded the information we had about SSPX and Richard Williamson, including what we knew about the content in the interview Uppdrag Granskning had with him, to the Vatican," Arborelius said.

"I want to underline that forwarding information to the Vatican is pure routine, and not something exceptional for this case," he added.
 
(Of course, it is evident that such information could possibly have been held up on one desk or another, and never reached the Pope or his top advisors.)  
====================================

A fourth consideration is the relationship of the Roman Catholic Church to the world's Orthodox Churches.
 
It became clear last week, during a very cordial visit to Rome by a representative of the Orthodox Patriarch of Moscow, that relations between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, especially Russian Orthodoxy, at least on the surface, are much improved over the past few years.

Here are excerpts from an account of that visit I wrote for the Monday, September 21 edition of the Zenit news agency:
 
Recent Meeting Could Mark Turning Point

altOn September 18, inside Castel Gandolfo, the Pope's summer palace about 30 miles outside Rome, a Russian Orthodox Archbishop named Hilarion Alfeyev (photo), 43 (a scholar, theologian, expert on the liturgy, composer and lover of music), met with Benedict XVI, 82 (also a scholar, theologian, expert on the liturgy and lover of music), for almost two hours, according to informed sources.
 
(There are as yet no "official" sources about this meeting -- the Holy See has still not released an official communiqué.)

The silence suggests that what transpired was important -- perhaps so important that the Holy See thinks it isn't yet prudent to reveal publicly what was discussed.

But there are numerous "signs" that the meeting was remarkably harmonious...

In memory of the visit, Archbishop Hilarion gave the Pope a pectoral cross, made in workshops of Russian Orthodox Church...

It is especially significant, in this context, that Hilarion, Patriarch Kirill's "Foreign Minister," has some of the same deep interests as Benedict XVI: the liturgy, and music.

"As a 15-year-old boy I first entered the sanctuary of the Lord, the Holy of Holies of the Orthodox Church,” Hilarion once wrote about the Orthodox liturgy. “But it was only after my entrance into the altar that the 'theourgia,' the mystery, and 'feast of faith' began, which continues to this very day.

"After my ordination, I saw my destiny and main calling in serving the Divine Liturgy. Indeed, everything else, such as sermons, pastoral care and theological scholarship were centered around the main focal point of my life -- the liturgy."

These words seem to echo the feelings and experiences of Benedict XVI, who has written that the liturgies of Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday in Bavaria when he was a child were formative for his entire being, and that his writing on the liturgy (one of his books is entitled "Feast of Faith") is the most important to him of all his scholarly endeavors.

"Orthodox divine services are a priceless treasure that we must carefully guard," Hilarion has written. "I have had the opportunity to be present at both Protestant and Catholic services, which were, with rare exceptions, quite disappointing… Since the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council, services in some Catholic churches have become little different from Protestant ones."

Again, these words of Hilarion seem to echo Benedict XVI's own concerns. The Pope has made it clear that he wishes to reform the Catholic Church's liturgy, and preserve what was contained in the old liturgy and now risks being lost.

Hilarion has cited the Orthodox St. John of Kronstadt approvingly. St. John of Kronstadt wrote: "The Church and its divine services are an embodiment and realization of everything in Christianity... It is the divine wisdom, accessible to simple, loving hearts."

These words echo words written by Cardinal Ratzinger, now Benedict XVI, who often said that the liturgy is a "school" for the simple Christian, imparting the deep truths of the faith even to the unlearned through its prayers, gestures and hymns.

Hilarion in recent years has become known for his musical compositions, especially for Christmas and for Good Friday, celebrating the birth and the Passion of Jesus Christ. These works have been performed in Moscow and in the West, in Rome in March 2007 and in Washington DC in December 2007.

Closer relations between Rome and Moscow, then, could have profound implications also for the cultural and liturgical life of the Church in the West. There could be a renewal of Christian art and culture, as well as of faith... 
 
(Here is a link to the complete article: http://www.zenit.org/article-26932?l=english.)

====================================

As I said at the outset, the "Williamson affair," and the effort to ascertain what the Vatican knew, and when, about Williamson's views, may continue to dominate news headlines, or it may pass away into silence. Time will tell.
 
But the re-emergence of the issue reminds us that there is a larger battle occurring, a battle for the "deposit of the faith," a battle for our tradition and the beliefs handed down to us from the Apostles, and it is that battle that we should be aware of and concerned about.

Last week, I had a wonderful and productive meeting in New Rochelle, New York, with Dr. Alice von Hildebrand, 86, who has given me some documents which may help me to understand better the history of the Church in our time.
 
I will be returning to Rome soon, God willing, and reporting on these documents, and on other matters which I have left unfinished.
 
====================================
 
“He that takes truth for his guide, and duty for his end, may safely trust to God's providence to lead him aright.”Blaise Pascal (French mathematician, philosopher, physicist and writer, 1623-1662)

[resources: Inside the Vatican]


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ministry/Outreach; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; vatican
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To: MarkBsnr
What kind of response do you expect from such drivel? It would be amusing if your premise wasn't so full of holes and your posts so full of hatred and animosity. I still find plenty in your screeds to make me grin. I can almost see spit hitting the monitor. Plus, you continue putting your thoughts into my words. It's kinda hypocritical of you to accuse me of that same thing, isn't it?

Mockery is all that's necessary, to compete with those disconnected thoughts you so arrogantly repeat! Saying things repetitiously doesn't make it so, no matter how many times you spin around! You gotta have beads... and a plastic Mary on your dash!

81 posted on 09/26/2009 7:09:35 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Futility: trying to slam a revolving door!)
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To: WVKayaker

***What kind of response do you expect from such drivel? ***

One that reflects the ideals of the one I posted to.

***It would be amusing if your premise wasn’t so full of holes and your posts so full of hatred and animosity. ***

I would be grateful if you could list examples of each.

***I still find plenty in your screeds to make me grin.***

My duty is but to serve and to provide amusement for the unbelievers.

***I can almost see spit hitting the monitor. ***

I can almost see the Powerball numbers for the drawing.

*** Plus, you continue putting your thoughts into my words. ***

I’m not sure what this means, except for possibly a trip to the rubber room in a comfy straightjacket.

***It’s kinda hypocritical of you to accuse me of that same thing, isn’t it? ***

See the comment immediately above.

***Mockery is all that’s necessary, to compete with those disconnected thoughts you so arrogantly repeat!***

See the comment immediately above.

***Saying things repetitiously doesn’t make it so, no matter how many times you spin around! ***

Hello?

***You gotta have beads... and a plastic Mary on your dash!***

Knock, knock. Hello? Is there anybody in there?


82 posted on 09/26/2009 7:27:29 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Did you say anything? I heard some buzz and static in your response, but I am sure I didn't hear an intelligent thought? Try repeating yourself. Oops, you've already done that, done that, done that, done that, done that, done that, done that, done that, ad nauseum. It's like that every day...

You and your buddy are excellent spammers.

83 posted on 09/26/2009 7:39:59 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Futility: trying to slam a revolving door!)
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To: WVKayaker

***Did you say anything? ***

The truth.

***I heard some buzz and static in your response, but I am sure I didn’t hear an intelligent thought?***

Perhaps you should have your aural and cognitive processes examined.

***You and your buddy are excellent spammers.***

Who is my buddy and how do you (of all people) determine that we are excellent spammers?


84 posted on 09/26/2009 7:46:19 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Buzzzzzzzzz....pop....crackle....snap.... makes as much sense as your post...

"You can't handle the truth", much less be authoritative. Your church says it holds all the truth, and you buy it because your church tells you it's the truth. Right!..." In my dictionary, they call it indoctrination. In the Mormon church, they call it a way to become a god yourself.

The news has been full of the Obama songs. They know that those young minds are easily directed, and controlled. If done properly, it's hard to sway them from that early teaching. I see that in the RCC, just the same! Your idea of truth is just like pissing in the wind. It's gonna make you feel relief, but it's likely going to get your leg wet! Praying loudly and bowing to wooden statues isn't a New Testament thing, except by the Pharisees. Jesus had plenty to say about that, but the blind must be given a free gift of sight before they can see...

Got spit? Try making mud for healing, instead of flinging it for spite. Lift up Jesus, not your church. Jesus isn't on the cross any more. He is risen. He has given us His Holy Spirit. Maranatha.

85 posted on 09/26/2009 8:02:30 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Futility: trying to slam a revolving door!)
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To: trisham
What about the paintings of the Sistine chapel? God the Father is portrayed there

That's not an icon or holy image. It is religious art, which is not venerated.

This is an icon being venerated by a Catholic:


86 posted on 09/26/2009 8:31:08 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: Pyro7480

And your point is?


87 posted on 09/26/2009 8:34:48 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: Pyro7480
How about this one: pope venertaing the cross and the icon, but not the rleigious art on the wall to his right.

Or is this not a 'real' pope for you too?

88 posted on 09/26/2009 8:41:20 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: NYer

Considering it was the then Cardinal Ratzinger that negotiated with Bishop Lefevre the agreement that he could ordain one bishop to be Lefevre’s successor, and considering that Lefevre defied that agreement and ordained 3 bishops of which Williamson was one, I find it very hard to believe that the now Pope Benedict did not know about Williamson’s radical beliefs. I think he knew all of these SSPX players very well. This is the stuff that kept me away from the Catholic Church for 30 years.


89 posted on 09/26/2009 8:54:14 PM PDT by DaGman
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To: MarineMomJ; MarkBsnr; stfassisi
I don’t submit to the Novus Ordo rhetoric of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”. I studied “The Baltimore Catechism”.

If you studied it, then you must recall 222 which says "We honor Christ and the saints when we pray before the crucifix, relics, and sacred images because we honor the persons they represent; we adore Christ and venerate the saints".

The Council of Trent states "Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them...but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear: as, by the decrees of Councils, and especially of the second Synod of Nicaea, has been defined against the opponents of images." [Council of Trent, Session XXV]

Or is this not Catholic enough for you? It is clear that the Catholic Church venerated statues and holy images (icons) all along.

And you’re one to talk, you’re not even Catholic so please keep your non-solicited opinions to yourself. Discussion [sic] over

Whether I am Catholic or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is that, by all accounts, you don't know the Church's history and teaching or otherwise you would not have written what you have written regarding venerating icons and depicting God the Father as a human being.

Rather, as MarkBsnr observed, you seem to be making your own church...and rules.

As for my opinions, this is an open forum, and opinions are welcome, and I intend to comment on what find worth commenting on, with or without your "permission."

As for my comments/opinions not being solicited, perhaps you need to be reminded that you volunteered to make a non-solicited comment showing God the Father in human form (Post #46 addressed to stafassisi, not you), which was patently false if not naïve, and then another comment about venerating icons being something the Eastern Orthodox do but not Catholics, which is patently false.

Both of your comments run counter to Church doctrine and teaching going back to the the 7th Ecumenical Council, and earlier.

Trouble is, you claim the discussion is over and I ask what "discussion?" So far, you have stated two doctrinal blunders but you have not provided any reference, any evidence, any quote, anything, to support any of your unsolicited claims.

90 posted on 09/26/2009 9:40:40 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: MarkBsnr; MarineMomJ
MarkBsnr to MarineMomeJ: Where is your authority?

Sedevacantists arrogate their own by proclaiming all the popes since 1963 (probably including +John XXIII but certainly +Paul VI and every pope after him, including the current one) as heretics and anti-popes.

91 posted on 09/26/2009 9:58:08 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: WVKayaker
Amen! Preach the word, WVK. Apparently some RCs think God just makes it up as He goes along, waiting to see what men will do next. Nuttiness.

This is a fasinating article...

Jews and Catholics worldwide were outraged after Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication of Williamson, along with three other ultraconservative bishops

It is ludicrous to say Ratzinger didn't know of these men's ugly beliefs. Who lifts excommunications without the pope's knowledge?

And what does this story have to do with the opening of the article and some speculative reproachment between Rome and the Orthodox in Russia? The beginning of this article is completely misleading.

The background you need to know is that Il Giornale has been engaged in a furious battle with Vatican Radio and the Catholic newspaper Avvenire, whose editor Dino Boffo it forced to resign after claiming he was a homosexual with a police record.

lolol. Not that there could be any truth to that charge, right? He resigned, didn't he?

"The background you need to known"...is once again, what mother Rome decides is best for you to know, Run along.

92 posted on 09/26/2009 11:14:04 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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Comment #93 Removed by Moderator

Comment #94 Removed by Moderator

To: WVKayaker

***SOS-DD...***

I am grateful to see that you are following Algore’s teachings in saving on things like vowels, but even without them, yours posts make no more sense to me. Can you explain please?


95 posted on 09/27/2009 10:49:08 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
I found your likeness on the internet, complete with appropriate language.

Look up SOS-DD if you really don't know... but your coy reply is just more of the SOS...

Here's what I usually hear from you... living in the oblivious world of Catholicism!

96 posted on 09/27/2009 10:54:06 AM PDT by WVKayaker (Futility: trying to slam a revolving door!)
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To: Jedidah

JUST HADDDDDDD to stir things up when it was unneeded....go pray somehwere and let the Catholics deal with this, really none of your business cause after all, Catholics aren’t realllly “christians. “

HA!


97 posted on 09/27/2009 10:55:38 AM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Pray for Israel! And Georgia ! And the Iranian people! and Honduras!)
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To: stfassisi; NYer

You guys have waaaay more patience than i do!

If I engage too much my attendance yesterday at church may wear off!( just kidding)


98 posted on 09/27/2009 10:57:18 AM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Pray for Israel! And Georgia ! And the Iranian people! and Honduras!)
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Comment #99 Removed by Moderator

To: kosta50

I gave an icon to my son, The Trinity.

It has three identical figures seated at a table. They have wings.

Art or icon? Now I’m confused. I had it blessed.


100 posted on 09/27/2009 11:56:09 AM PDT by OpusatFR (Those embryos are little humans in progress. Using them for profit is slavery.)
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