Sunstone speaker attempts to explain LDS 'aversion' to cross

Mormon Times ^ | Sept. 10, 2009 | Michael De Groote

[lucias_clay]

Of course the mormons oppose the cross. Its a Christian symbol afterall.

[Brookhaven]

I am Jewish, so I am clearly not an involved party, but personally the cross never bothered me, but the cross with Jesus on it always struck me as a “graven image” (idol).

You understand what the writer of this essay doesn't. The cross with Jesus on it is commonly called a crucifix and is strongly associated with the Catholic church. Because the crucifix is so strongly associated with the Catholic church (and as you noted, some believe it crosses the line as a graven image) the crucifx has been rejected by most protestant churches.

The plain cross (two lines intersecting) is different. It has alwasy been accpeted by protestant churches and has been fully embraced as the primary symbol of Christiantiy.

The images below show the difference between a crucifix and a cross.

[CommerceComet]

it neglects the act in the Garden of Gethsemane (where he took upon himself our sins)

Exactly how do you draw that conclusion? The penalty for our sins was death, not agony. If Christ took on our sins at Gethsemane, why did He have to endure the cross? You realize that under your position, the mockers at the foot of the cross (Matthew 27:41-43) were correct.

[Brookhaven]

Exactly how do you draw that conclusion? The penalty for our sins was death, not agony. If Christ took on our sins at Gethsemane, why did He have to endure the cross? You realize that under your position, the mockers at the foot of the cross (Matthew 27:41-43) were correct.
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CC, you are making a fundamental error. Your argument assumes Christianity and Mormonism are similar religions. They aren’t. While theys share some of the same words and characters, Momonism and Christianity are as different as say, Christianity and Hinduims.

This isn’t like a Baptist and Catholic arguing (where despite the percieve differences, they both do have a common reference and probably agree 90% of the time.) This is more like a Baptist and Hindu arguing. Mormons have taken the people and symbols found in the Bible and filled them with totaly different meanings.

When you say Jesus is the son of God, you mean he is spiritually the Son, part of the Trinity, and is God (the one and only God, period.) A Mormon calling Jesus the son of God, means Jesus is the physical son of a physical god (that is actually a human being like you and me) that he has a physical brother named Lucifer, and that “god the father” is just one of many gods that exist.

There is not a common ground upon which you can argue scripture with a Mormon.

[Skenderbej]

I suppose you’ve never visited the Greek Orthodox churches of southern Albania. If you were to visit, you would find the statues I described in most of the churches in the region. Many of these churches date to the 12th and 13th centuries.

I’ll see if I can dig up some pictures from my travels there, although I don’t think I’ll have any. As a general rule I didn’t take pictures inside the churches, especially not of the altars.

[Elsie]

It’s a modified version of a statement I’d seen on FR long ago...

[Elsie]

...or a DILBERT character...

[Skenderbej]

From Tennessee Nana’s post,

“The cross is a center of the Christian faith...

Without it there would be no Christianity...”

I didn’t make it up, I didn’t have to read her mind. My paraphrase was nearly identical to what she said. You called a lot of bloodhounds, but none have shown up. Why the animosity towards fellow Christians on Freerepublic?

[TheThirdRuffian]

Most of the mormon founders were masons and boldly stole from the fraternity, right down to the secret handshakes.

I have no idea what the mormon meaning of the symbols are but the masonic meaning of those are pretty straightforward.

Pyramid is the Holy Trinity, with the “all seeing eye of God” looking at you reminding you that sins done in private are seen by God.

The bee is industry and preparation; good behavior as a citizen.

The right-side-up pentagram is not a common masonic symbol (the inverted not at all), but:

(1) the Knight’s Templar use it in reference to the five wounds of Christ (2 wrist, 2 ankle and 1 side);

(2) some masons used to use it in reference to the Seventh Seal that appered on King Soloman’s ring and/or the Five Points of Fellowship

(3) the Eastern Star refer to it as the Bethlehm Star in reference to the star the Wise men followed

That said, because nasty folk use the inverted pentagram the fraternity discourages its use to prevent confusion.

[greyfoxx39]

You stated: "It doesn’t help when people like Tennessee Nana post something to the effect that the cross is THE center of the Christian religion."...THEN went on to say "To me it seems ludicrous to insinuate that an image of a cross has more meaning in Christianity than Christ himself." which is taking her words and twisting them completely.

SHE said, "The cross is a center of the Christian faith... HERE... Without it there would be no Christianity..."...and she is correct...Had Jesus not died on the cross, there would be no Christianity.

There is NO "insinuation that an image of a cross has more meaning in Christianity than Christ himself."

You called a lot of bloodhounds, but none have shown up. Why the animosity towards fellow Christians on Freerepublic?

I pinged fellow exmormons in case they cared to weigh in, and the animosity I have is to the lies and distortions of mormonism, of which your distortion HERE of Tennessee Nana's post is a prime example.

As to your "fellow Christian" remark, when the mormon leaders officially renounce the words of such high-placed apostles as this....“all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ.... in large part the worship of apostate Christendom is performed in ignorance, as much so as was the worship of the Athenians who bowed the Unknown Gods.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 269, 374-375...I will ponder on considering mormons as "Christians".

[CommerceComet]

CC, you are making a fundamental error. Your argument assumes Christianity and Mormonism are similar religions.

Actually, I don't make that assumption at all. What I like to do with Mormons is draw out their beliefs and let them conclude on their own that Christianity and Mormonism are a set of irreconciliable beliefs. After lots of discussions with Mormons, I completely agree with Walter Martin's assessment that "discussing spiritual issues with a Mormon is like trying to describe a rainbow to someone who had been blind since birth."

There is not a common ground upon which you can argue scripture with a Mormon.

I wasn't arguing Scripture per se but instead pointing out the logical conclusion of his statement. By trivializing the importance of the cross, his position leads to the same postion held by the mockers at the foot of the cross.

[Elsie]

Why the animosity towards fellow Christians on Freerepublic?

And I've wondered about all the animosity between fellow MORMONs.

Just LOOK at how the poor Flds folks are put down and slandered by the SLC bunch recently - sayin' that "They ain't MORMON!!" when at least THEY follow GOD's word by OBEYING D&C 132.

[Cvengr]

The significance of the Cross is how God provided for all of mankind and maintained His Perfect Justice at the same time.

Study His Holiness from the perspective of perfect justice and the Cross becomes a magnificent symbol of His love for mankind.

[Cvengr]

For every church without a cross, how many of their cemeteries do you imagine might also not have a crucifix on any of their headstones or graves?

[muawiyah]

Use of a crucifix (meaning a cross with a Jesus figure attached) is NOT COMMON among Protestants.

I hope that's not a surprise to you. It is more likely for a Protestant to have a Star of David somewhere than a full-blown crucifix.