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"I must not press the authority of Nicea against you, nor you that of Ariminum against me; I do not acknowledge the one, as you do not the other; but let us come to ground that is common to both- the testimony of the Holy Scriptures."
1 posted on 08/07/2009 5:46:08 AM PDT by Ottofire
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To: Ottofire
Everyone has the right to hear the Gospel and access the means of Salvation provided by Christ if properly disposed.

Salvation subsists within the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church guards the deposit of Revelation.

The Church is always reformed, but always in need of reform.

Therefore everyone has the right to call for the authentic reform of the Church.

And nobody has the right to call for the deformation of the Church.

2 posted on 08/07/2009 5:56:15 AM PDT by cmj328 (Filibuster FOCA--a/k/a this "Health" Bill--or lose reelection)
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To: Ottofire

Most of this article is revisionist nonsense. +Athanasius the Great was NOT a proto-protestant of any kind and what he was fighting was the theology of probably the then majority of the Church of Antioch, not of the “Established Church”.

That said, from an Orthodox perspective, it is even more nonsensical to say that the reformers had no right to attempt to reform the Latin Church in the 16th century. The “laos tou Theou”, the People of God, the laity, ALWAYS are the guardians of orthodox Christianity and it is their duty and role within The Church to keep hierarchs and clergy on an orthodox path. To say otherwise is to turn The Church over to hierarchs, some of whose skulls, we are taught, pave the floor of Hell, and reduce the laity to the status of pay, pray and obey serfs.


3 posted on 08/07/2009 5:56:45 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Ottofire

This article makes no sense.

Swan wrote: “I often wonder about those who attack the Reformers for standing against the majority, and how they explain Athanasius.”

What? Athanasius was one of US. He was orthodox Trinitarian and so are we. The pope supported his efforts.

Look at the creed ascribed to him:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.


4 posted on 08/07/2009 6:20:43 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Ottofire
Since the time of Christ, the Church has been constantly in need of reform. It is always in need of being renewed, cleansed and reinvigorated. Many great saints have been called to this task.....Athanasius, Augustine, Benedict, Catherine of Siena, Dominic, Francis, Teresa of Avila, Ignatius and many more.

Is it necessary to say that true reform and renewal never sunder the unity of the Church? Reform does not weaken nor divide the Church. It builds it up and strengthens it.

The issue is not whether the Church of the 16th century needed reforming. The issue is whether Luther's and Calvin's methods were the correct remedy for the illness.

Just because a physician correctly diagnoses an illness, it does not automatically follow that his treatment is the most beneficial nor the correct one.

7 posted on 08/07/2009 6:57:54 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Ottofire
"I must not press the authority of Nicea against you, nor you that of Ariminum against me; I do not acknowledge the one, as you do not the other; but let us come to ground that is common to both- the testimony of the Holy Scriptures."

Great article. Ping to re-read!

9 posted on 08/07/2009 7:05:07 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("I always longed for repose and quiet" - John Calvin)
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To: Ottofire

“The Bible itself, if allowed to be read like any document should be read...”

Insert here whatever interpretation the author holds to at this time in his life. Using St. Athanasius is silly since he would consider protestantism to be heresy due to it’s teachings on the Eucharist alone.


18 posted on 08/07/2009 7:41:24 AM PDT by arielguard (Fasting without prayer is vainglory.)
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To: Ottofire

bttt


23 posted on 08/07/2009 7:58:42 AM PDT by xone
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