Posted on 09/04/2008 3:24:18 PM PDT by annalex
The woman in Gen is not speaking of Mary.And as far as the bible says that Joseph was a just man, and many believe that he died when Jesus was young so it is a streach that he was a saint.
What is a 4c is that anything like the 4h?
Based on †Paul's “I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means and in any way, save them.” (1 Cor 9:22).
Apparently †Paul believed he was endowed with this power as God's "deputy," a co-worker of God.
We are also told that we are our own co-redeemers, as well as of others who hear us (1 Tim 4:16).
This takes away the unique role ascribed by the Latin Church to Mary's exclusive co-redemptive role.
The word pray also doesn't always mean "taking to God." That is somewhat of a Protestant innovation. The word used to mean "ask." It could be anyone. You can even say "pray tell" and no one thbinks you are praying to God. The same way the word kyrios was used: a title that applies to humans as well as to God.
The prayer in the Orthodox Church I am familiar with is the one that says "Though the prayers of the Theotokos, O Savior, save us." [Feast of Transfiguration of Our Lord God Jesus Christ, August 6th] That makes sense to me. Theotokos save us doesn't.
Only God saves. It is his prerogative. Excluding Christ, no human is divine, period.
The woman in Genesis is promised that her seed will crush the serpent. That is Mary.
The rest of your questions I don’t understand, will you rephrase?
A Google on "Theotokos, Save Us" yields dozens of entries.
Some modern Orthodox Christians don't like the words "Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us." They would prefer the words "intercede for us," reminding us that the exclamation "Save Us" is confusing to non-Orthodox. The veneration of Mary is not for the non-Orthodox. Once people have been fully converted to Christ, the love of the Panagia follows naturally.
That was written rather hastily. Yes the woman in Gen is Mary but the comment from Jesus at the marriage about using the word woman did not refer back to the Gen woman.
This is a caucus thread. Are you Catholic/Orthodox?
“Some modern Orthodox Christians don’t like the words “Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us.” They would prefer the words “intercede for us,” reminding us that the exclamation “Save Us” is confusing to non-Orthodox. The veneration of Mary is not for the non-Orthodox. Once people have been fully converted to Christ, the love of the Panagia follows naturally.”
Yup.
Right, -- we both interpret. You read "woman" and think "condescension", and I read "woman" and think "propoevangelion". Now, who reads scripture and who injects his modern outlook?
Note that if Mary "meddled" then she succeeded in her "meddling" as Christ did start His ministry of miracles and conversion at Cana. She also had a strange way of "meddling" by saying "they have no wine" and "do what He tells you". The notion that Jesus was irritated at His mother doesn't fit the context, let alone anything else.
I invited all to come with questions, see #2. The caucus designation permits that. My ping list is for non-Catholics, and is unlikely to have any Orthodox.
You know me: I’d have it open if the subject were not the person of the Blessed Mother.
:-)
I totally concur with your commentary. The world, unfortunately, is filled with doubting Thomases who seek proof and profiteers who know how to capitalize on their weaknesses.
propoevangelion -> protoevangelion, verse 15 of Gen. 3.
In Luke 1:31,34, the angel tells Mary that you "will" conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, "How shall this be?" Mary's response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.
Technically, no, but there are may in the Western Church who would like to make it a dogma that Mary is the Co-Redemptrix, and no one else. Certainly the Western Church is not opposed to Catholics holding such beliefs.
Some modern Orthodox Christians don't like the words "Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us."
It's not a matter of "liking" or "disliking," but a matter of theological concern that a human being is being elevated to a demi-god.
"Once people have been fully converted to Christ, the love of the Panagia follows naturally."
Goes without saying.
Or to use the more common phrase, she was His mother.
So, do you send your mother a "Vessel Card" on Mother's Day?
Guitarplayer was not arguing that point, but yes, good to remind people of this scriptural evidence for her perpetual virginity.
The "no one else" part I dispute. Here we have a proponent of such dogma and he clearly writes that the co-redemptive status of Mary is an icon of the co-redemptive Church and so all of us. See the passage I highlighted a few posts ago. Now, you would not dispute that there are things about Mary that are unique, but the proposed dogma is designed to underscore rather than deny our own participation in the redemptive work of Christ.
a matter of theological concern that a human being is being elevated to a demi-god
My point with "Theotokos save us" is not that there is no concern like that, but that the Orthodox Church has this devotion, and I am sure millions of the Orthodox repeat the prayer understanding it correctly, not as demi-godship of Mary but as her unique participation in the economy of salvation. But that Orthodox prayer is diagrammatically not that Mary is a co-Redemptrix, but the she is, gasp, Redemptrix. Just like I do not make it my business to presume that the Orthodox praying that are idolaters, please do not make it your business to presume that the Catohlics, who pray less strident a prayer with the "co-" attached, are.
She like all other has sinned and was a sinner
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
I am part of the universal church of Jesus.
Romans 3:23 does not apply to Mary; if it did she would be not merely a sinner but also someone who is not seeking God, whose "mouth is is full of cursing and bitterness" and whose "feet are quick to shed blood" (vv 11-15). What you cite are generalized statements of human sinfullness.
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