Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
It is a forum in which school-yard conventions apply, in which pointing out how one's opponents hinder conversation is considered whining,
in which people put up pictures of "cry-babies" because they cannot distinguish between what is said and their own emotional projections onto the person saying it — and thus think if someone says, "There is a lot of hatred directed toward us," that person must be sad and weepy about it. They cannot or do not read an observation without assuming an array of feelings which are not in evidence.
(Similarly, they think that a person who notes that someone tried to "drive them nuts" must have been "driven nuts". No fear!)
In other words, it is not the kind of place where serious theological differences can be discussed. If this were a forum of adults committed to adult conversation, I think I could mount at least an interesting argument in favor of co-redemptrix and co-mediator.
But it's not. So I won't. If it ever becomes a forum of adults, I will attempt it, Deo volente rivoque non adsurgente.
Here is a superb article about Unam Sanctum and Lumen Gentium, very readable.
http://www.catholicexchange.com/2007/12/05/91003/
You have me confused with someone else, but the Word from God Himself is quite clear on that. Protestants pray only to God the Father, through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and then we ask, we ask only if it is the Father’s will. We don’t presume to tell God what to do. Perhaps some of you can find real scripture that says otherwise.
That's one way to put it.
The most charitable way to put it is this: It is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. Those who claim it is should prove it.
Then you shouldn't mind filling in for them. Where is it?
Matthew 7:
[5] You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
>>Ok, I think I understand, but not really. I used the word link with its meaning before computers. Connected to. So the slippery term “co-Redemptrix” can’t be explained, no one knows where it comes from, it could be associated with shut-down cults, or not, the onus is upon Protestants to tell Catholics where it’s from if they are going to bring it up, it has been defendable in the past when it was erroneously thought to be Latin, but since it is essentially gibberish, no one wants to anymore. Or maybe they do.
That about right?<<
I’m sorry, I must be thick.
Can you explain that again? Please?
It starts at Genesis 1:1 and continues on to Revelation 22:21
You have made your position quite clear..thanks...
The pagans, even such grand old pagans as the Romans, before undertaking any important action would solemnly consult the auspices. . . . Intelligent people use the Bible in some such way. When at a loss how to proceed, instead of calmly consulting their own judgments and the judgments of their wisest friends, and then acting like reasonable beings, men and women will open their Bibles at random, let then-eyes rest on the first verse which arrests their attention, and accept any possible bearing on the question in hand as the voice of God. The journals of John Wesley and other eminent men contain examples of this abuse of the Bible. [emphasis added.]
Maybe the wording I remembered is a local Prince Edward Islandism.
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Yes. So I have also been given to understand. However, as has often been said, "The Lord works in mysterious ways".
I can unequivocally state that many Protestant lawyers and friends of mine file hundreds of pleadings in court containing “Prayers For Relief”.
They pray that the Court grants them money damages, injuctive reilef, a stay of proceedings, spousal support, child support, general damages, attorney’s fees......hundreds of different kinds of relief.
They are clearly ‘praying’ and they are praying to the Court.
I’ll have to have my lawyer answer that, but I never pay him a cent, so good luck.
Are you interested in the testimony of former Priests?
If any one of us ever preached that or defended it, you might have a case. However, it appears to be a superstition of isolated people, and not a well-known one at that. It has the appearance of ‘tempting God” and all the Christians I know, avoid that.
No one on FR has advocated it (that I know of). I wouldn't know how widespread it is or has been, but L.M. Montgomery shows several instances, and according to the above source Wesley and "other great men" apparently did it. I know I've heard or read of it elsewhere, too -- if I remember where, I'll let you know. (Several of LMM's books I read about 20 times, so I do remember that!)
You don’t pay your lawyer?!
That’s gotta violate at least one, if not several, of the Ten Commandments.
RD
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