I never thought you were; I think you are insulting Catholics that accept the Church's teaching and reasoning for the Marian dogmas.
And you don't need to quote scripture to me, I already know what verse you will quote.
The Proverbs tell us answering a matter before hearing it is shame and folly.
That is not the Scripture I was going to quote, but even so, your comment:
Yes, she was "blessed" in the sense that God found favor with her and she agreed to bear the Messiah. This is wonderful, and I have no doubt the Lord's mother was a wonderful and girl and woman and did the Lord's will in bearing and raising her son. I can't imagine her pain, at the cross. I am not attacking or insulting the Lord's mother, but I am arguing that the Catholic notion of Mary is far beyond what and who Mary really was, and that most of Catholic doctrine about her is a later invention.shows you either have only the barest awareness of Catholic teaching on the matter, or are determined to find reason to undermine the teaching.
(And virtually no modern translation translates Gabriel's words to her as "full of grace", either.)
Why is that significant? I thought "older was better" in previous argumentation?
But after Mary's death there is nothing in scripture (the words of the apostles or their followers), or early church tradition, or the writings of the earliest church fathers to indicate in any way that she was "assumed" into heaven...
Not so. It is at least debatable that Mary is the woman of Rev 12. Furthermore, this woman is not referred to as a "soul" like the martyrs crying out to God.
You may not find such things convincing, but they are certainly not "nothing."
Now, I am not opposed to these notions completely, if there were some basis for any of it, but in my own search I find no basis for any of it.
What Catholic sources have you availed yourself of?
In good conscience, then, I could not join the Catholic Church and accept their doctrines which I believe to be invented. That's not an insult, but if you take it that way, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can do about that.
You are familiar with the "New Eve" and "New Ark of the Covenant" teachings? My understanding is much of it comes from Irenieus (sp?) in the second century.
You never quoted to me the Scripture that you said you were going to quote. What is it, if not from Luke? Please explain how what I said shows that I have only the "barest awareness of Catholic teaching on the matter".
Revelation 12 is certainly debatable, and I have studied it some, and the best exegesis I have seen from scholars is that the woman is Israel who brings forth the Messiah. The argument from the Catholic side (while perhaps not "nothing") that this is Mary doesn't hold water for too many reasons to go into here (but I can recommend a number of excellent commentaries - Baker Exegetical Commentary, "Revelation", by Grant R. Osborne is one of the best - you can check the Amazon reviews on it). Even should one accept the Catholic exegesis on Revelation 12, there is nothing in that to suggest that Mary should be prayed to, or can "intercede", etc.
"What Catholic sources have you availed yourself of?"
The Catechism. Also, I have read a lot of the early history of the church and writings of the early church fathers.
"You are familiar with the "New Eve" and "New Ark of the Covenant" teachings? My understanding is much of it comes from Irenieus (sp?) in the second century."
Yes, I am familiar with it, and I have no problem with it. Still, what does this have to do with praying to a person who is dead and now in the presence of the Lord? There is nothing in scripture that indicates the dead in Christ can do anything, are aware of anyone here on earth or what we're doing, or that they can "intercede" for anyone (or any other activity), except one offhand verse in Revelation that Catholic teaching extrapolates to a ridiculous level.
The verse is in Revleations (as I'm sure you know), the "elders" bringing the "prayers" to the throne of the Lord: from that one verse, Catholic teaching has extrapolated and invented a whole teaching about praying to saints and to Mary. It is, at least, the only thing I have ever heard John Martinoni(sp) or Scott Hahn or any other Catholic apologist ever be able to muster up to offer any evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for what is clearly an invented doctrine. It is, to say the least, a thin and hardly convincing argument on which to base an entire doctrine that borders, if not crosses, the line of idolatry.