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To: ovrtaxt
Thanks for keeping civil - I haven't caught up to this thread yet, but I am always thankful for people who keep their head and put some thought into their answers, rather than losing their cool.

In response to your post, I agree with the paraphrase. However, it recognizes two things - one, that there ARE leaders, and two, that those leaders are SERVANTS. Now, in the Church, our Priests are some of the greatest servants you will ever meet, IMHO. I'm not gonna bore you with my examples from my experience, but I can if you wish. The reality of life means that most people cannot delve into the depths of Scripture and deduce all Its teachings, because a) most people (i.e., the laity) are (historically) busy tending the land, their herds, sewing, cobbling, etc. and b) a lot of people aren't blessed with the intellect of many leaders of the Church (the Fathers, Aquinas, JPII, etc.). Now, you don't seem to be completely anti-Theology, but if you are, (b) may be an issue for you - I concede that, and can discuss further.

The fact that our Servant-Leaders (Clergy) spend so much time studying Scripture, Theology before they become Priests, and then continue to do so when not attending to their flocks enables them to teach the rest of us who are either (a) lacking in time and/or (b) lacking in ability to do the same. Classically, Teachers were Servants. In Antiquity, patrician Roman families would own learned Greek slaves, who taught their children Greek, poetry, rhetoric, logic, mathematics, etc. It was very much a Servant position.

In response to the "Nicolaitan heresy" you mentioned, I admit I know little about it. However, here I found some information about it. It doesn't seem to me that the heresy is what you think it is - please, if you have some other source, send it my way.

Lastly, I don't agree that different classes of believers is heresy. Jesus Himself selected the Twelve from all His disciples. He decided that they were "different" from the others who followed him around - not better, not greater, but different.

Again, thanks for an interesting discussion.

240 posted on 03/25/2008 12:51:08 PM PDT by thefrankbaum
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To: thefrankbaum

You’re welcome. I appreciate the absence of sarcasm too. It’s distracting when you feel you have to dish it out, and I’m certainly guilty of doing that too much.

Now, I don’t claim to have the holy grail of church structure. I simply am very suspect of anybody getting between the Lordship of Christ and His flock- who are shepherded through the Holy Spirit. I include pastors, priests, teachers, anybody who starts in with a controlling attitude. Counsel, wisdom and advice is good, but when that crosses the line into controlling and manipulating the church, I have a real problem with that. He did say ‘call no man father’ for a reason. That parental role, proper as it is with children, becomes a too easily abused position of influence among church leadership.

I don’t know. Maybe I just trust regular old people too much.

But Jesus said that it was better for His church if He went away, that the Comforter might come. He must have thought that the Holy Spirit could do a better job of raising up and directing His church than He could- probably because He was limited to a single location, whereas the Spirit can indwell us all and lead us internally- so I believe in the royalty and priesthood of all believers.

Nevertheless, He never set up a rulership class, but rather a relationship whereby the more mature would care for the newbies and provide leadership by example.

Which brings us to the ones who devote so much time studying and praying, etc. That relationship translates into great gravity in one’s words. It’s easy to recognize who is due greater honor- not by vestments and titles, but by the content of their character. Such a demeanor attracts trust and a willingness to submit to that person’s opinions. That to me is true leadership.


361 posted on 03/25/2008 7:23:29 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (Member of the irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.)
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