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To: Forest Keeper; irishtenor; MarkBsnr; D-fendr
OK, then if we take the Church's interpretation then God failed in His mission BECAUSE some are His children and some are not. There's no other way around it

It is a "failure" only if you define it that way. He saves those who come to Him, who return His love. He offers His blessings to everyone, to the righteous and the unrighteous. Is he wasting His time? Why do the unrighteous get His blessings?

Sure, there are passages. But the greatest weight of the totality of scripture seems to be clear in teaching the Trinity. That is my interpretation of how the Spirit has led me.

The Church teaches that the Son and the Spirit are homoousious (of one essence) with the Father. Do you believe that? Where in the Bible does it say, or even suggest that clearly? jesus says that "the Father is greater than I." Arians and unitarians understand this to be "evidence" of a lesser God, or not even a God. The Church understand that Christ was speakinhg in His human nature. It's not that obvious, FK.

Is the father the eternal source of the Son and the Spirit? Where does it say that?

Etc.

Yes, only those who want to receive Him will receive Him. No argument there

So, now you acknowledge free will?

Yes, and so none are children of God until they receive Him

By our fallen nature and not because God created us that way.

God is the only one to say what is right. And He does all through the scriptures, both in command and in example

We believe that if we do as Christ teaches us in the Gospels we will not stray into too much wrong. Mercy, forgivenss, loving your enemies, etc.

11,047 posted on 11/14/2007 8:01:30 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; irishtenor; MarkBsnr; D-fendr
It is a "failure" only if you define it that way. He saves those who come to Him, who return His love. He offers His blessings to everyone, to the righteous and the unrighteous. Is he wasting His time?

Yes, He is wasting His time if He gives saving grace to all, knowing that only a few will accept. That would be a failure if His true wish was for all to be saved. Now, I note that you mix in the word "blessing" here, and it is important to note. Some people see blessing and grace as being the same thing, and some see them as being different things. Outside of salvation, I would agree that blessings are wasted by people. However, they are not wasted by God giving them. The person can still learn from the experience of wasting the gift and grow closer to God. With salvation, it is an either/or situation, so it is different. There can be no benefit to the one who throws away saving grace (if such a thing were possible).

Why do the unrighteous get His blessings?

God uses the unrighteous to the benefit of the righteous. Therefore, they have to be "strung along" to get into the positions where God intends to use them. We are told that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter Heaven. Well, they didn't get to be rich by accident. God wanted to use them, as rich people, to further His plan.

The Church teaches that the Son and the Spirit are homoousious (of one essence) with the Father. Do you believe that?

Absolutely.

Where in the Bible does it say, or even suggest that clearly?

Well, as that website I just posted points out (under "The Trinity is God"), the Bible is clear that all three are clearly identified as God in scripture. Elsewhere, the Bible is clear that there is only one true God, therefore all must be of the same essence, i.e. "I and the Father are one", etc.

FK: "Yes, only those who want to receive Him will receive Him. No argument there."

So, now you acknowledge free will?

I went into "Patristic mode" again, so "yes", but probably not in the way that you mean it. :) I meant that first, God changes the heart of an elect, and THEN he wants to come to Him. Every time. No one is dragged kicking and screaming into accepting Christ. It's the first step where we might not see eye to eye. :)

FK: "Yes, and so none are children of God until they receive Him."

By our fallen nature and not because God created us that way.

That depends on who the creator is of men after Adam and Eve. I "think" I remember reading recently that you said that man is the creator of further men. If true, I disagree with this. I consider my children to be miracles directly from God. I could not say that if I thought that my wife and I created them.

We believe that if we do as Christ teaches us in the Gospels we will not stray into too much wrong. Mercy, forgiveness, loving your enemies, etc.

That is a good and sound Biblical teaching.

11,060 posted on 11/15/2007 5:40:18 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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