I'm just now learning however that I believe things that I didn't know that I believed. And BTW, is there anyone here who believes that a person's view of the end times determines their salvation. If not, why am I hearing so much contention in some of these post.
In Christ, Wiley
Learning is a never ending endeavor. Then there is the LDS perspective.
yitbos
How else do you describe and event which is visible only to a select group of people and hidden from the unbelieving world?
The historical (pre darbyist) view of a "rapture" is simply that as Christ comes back, the dead in Christ rise to meet him in the air, and the living saints are changed and meet him AS HE RETURNS TO THE EARTH -- either for final judgment or to set up a millenial reign and then final judgment 1000 years later--depending on whether your are amil or premil or postmil. All this weird stuff about the secret spiriting away of the "gentile" church and the re-establishment of Israel as a theocratic state, complete with a functioning temple with acceptable sacrifices to God, and interspace visitation between the heavens and earth on a vehicle like a space shuttle(I am not kidding, this is straight from Walvoord, one of the big guns from the biggest dispensational school out there, Dallas Seminary), is more reminiscent of the weirdo stuff from the Mormons or the WorldWide Church of God than the bible. It is kerfuffle and is NOT historical Christianity, and I don't care how many "Left Behind" film series and books are printed.
I personally can't comment on what you believe and what you are learning in this thread. I do know that when you believe a SYSTEM of thought that one element sometimes demands another. For example, a person who denies the divinity of Christ may SAY that he believes also that God is the savior, but simply put, If Christ is a created being, then we have no savior, because only God can save, and Christ is not God. A non-trinitarian heretic will immediately protest that you are "putting words in his mouth" but that is the clear and unmistakable result of his belief. I find that many American Christians are taught almost NOTHING but dispensationalist end times theology(even if they don't know it by name) and when they are first exposed to the idea that this system is not historical, nor even biblical, they react with some degree of indignation and horror, as if you had challenged the authenticity of Scripture. Of course, this is to be expected. That may be some of your own emotional reaction here. It certainly was mine. I had even taught a CLASS using Hal Lindseys little potboiler (Late Great Planet Earth) at my church -- ahem, this uh, also kind of tells you how OLD I am!!!! I let go of my beliefs SLOWLY as I studied the scriptures, studied the prophetical passages, looked at how they were applied in the NT as the NT quoted the OT, and read Romans. I do remember openly challenging John Stott (imagine the gall!!!) at a question/answer session at Urbana in 1974 as he stated he did not believe the present state of Israel had any particular eschatological significance in history. The very idea was horrifying to me, and I had no idea how biblically illiterate I was. All I knew was what I had been taught, and I had memorized ALL the verses and charts on the issue! I thought I was well read, and I was just indoctrinated.
And BTW, is there anyone here who believes that a person's view of the end times determines their salvation. I dont' know of anyone who believes that ANY of the four "biggies" in eschatological views is crucial to salvation. Historical pre mil, a mil, post mil, dispensational pre mil, all have good guys who hold these views.
I believe firmly that much of dispensationalism is simply wrongheaded, shallow and unsupported by historical scholarship by men you and I can't hold a candle to. That is a far different issue than whether a person is orthodox. It is the same kind of issue that predestination or baptism or church government are. People are emotionally committed to their positions (usually from personal loyalty to some leader who has helped them) and are largely ignorant of the idea that there might be biblical support for anything other than what they have always believed. That has certainly been my history, and still is oftentimes.
To the extent that we reflect God's image, we are goal-seeking creatures. Our perception of the ends towards which we strive shapes all that we do, and what we're living for. Rather high stakes!
If, OTOH, you assume that God's gracious and gradual processes of sanctification are at work in our lives and our histories to bring about the day when His glory covers the earth as the waters do the sea, you'll live with longer-range projects in view. Why not start a dynasty of fervent believers, who will still be shaping history a century after I'm gone? Why not pursue a doctorate at age 50+, and plan to amortize the increased credibility over the next three decades?
Pentecostals dream of instant sanctification. Reformed believers assume it takes years for the individual soul, decades for the marriage, centuries for the nations, and milennia for the church to approach God's design for them.
[1] Apres moi, le deluge said Louis XIV as he ran up fiscal and societal debts his grandkids would be unable to pay.