Posted on 03/04/2007 8:21:23 AM PST by Iscool
The inherent trap of YOPIOS which we are warned about in 2 Peter 3:16-17.
During the first three quarters of my life I conquered (or at least almost conquered) four of the deadly sins---Pride,Avarice,Lust and Envy. The other three--Gluttony,Anger and Sloth are daily challenges.
My sloth,both spiritual and temporal,often stop me from fuller participation on these threads since I am too lazy to learn to be computer literate,research and convey the information. Therefore I am grateful for caring,hardworking and knowledgeable people,you in particular,for supplementing my comments.
My mom,when she was totally exasperated would say that I was put here to make saints out of all who knew me; parents,spouse,children,friends,employees and acquaintances,I think you may be in those ranks. I just hope this doesn't trigger a remark on Free Republic in the near future about how flawed our Catholic saintmaking process is!!
Actually according to Irenaeus, Peter and Paul founded the church of Rome, not Peter alone. However, if you read the first chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans, neither Peter nor Paul founded the church of Rome. It was functioning just fine without an apostolic visit of any kind when Paul wrote his letter to the Romans in 56 AD.
But also: Do you remember my question: When did Peter become Bishop of Rome as legend has it?
Read your quote from Irenaeus carefully. Irenaeus says that Linus was the first Bishop of Rome, followed by Clement then Anacletus. So according to Irenaeus Peter was never the Bishop of Rome and there is no indication that he resided there for any period of time.
:-)
Enjoyed this post.
Clearly Jesus and his apostles had become a close-knit family. They were all members of the same family --- the family of God.
Me too! LOL!
Not quite....the Greek word translated Nations in this verse has a preferred meaning....Tribes. Gentile nations is a secondary meaning.
πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος
The word is ETHNOS and it is the sixth word in the above Greek sentence. The "Strong's # is 1484 and can be viewed here.
As you are surely aware, Our Lord in his instructions of Matthew 10:5 also include additional instructions in verse six. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If you have been following along you will note that both Uncle Chip and I have given everyone proof that there were literally millions of Israelites still living in Babylon during the first century. These were the remnants of the two captivities mentioned in the books of Kings and Chronicles. And, of course we know that the previous verse had already admonished "The Twelve" to stay out of Gentile territory......and going to the "Tribes of Israel" would have certainly been part of their instructions.
Other Apostles had been given instructions to evangelize the Gentiles....but "These Twelve"....now "Eleven" were told not to. That is why we say Peter was never in Rome....he was one of the eleven.
Point out my error....and we'll check it against scripture. Fair enough?
[2 Peter 3;16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Yes, you have the right to refer to me as "unlearned and unstable"....but why don't you show me my error.....instead of just pontificating.
According to Wikipedia:
"In the Hadrianic war 580,000 Jews were slain, according to Dion Cassius (lxix. 14). According to Theodor Mommsen, in the first century C.E. there were no less than 1,000,000 Jews in Egypt, in a total of 8,000,000 inhabitants; of these 200,000 lived in Alexandria, whose total population was 500,000. Adolf Harnack (Ausbreitung des Christentums, Leipzig, 1902) reckons that there were 1,000,000 Jews in Syria at the time of Nero, and 700,000 in Palestine, and he allows for an additional 1,500,000 in other places, thus estimating that there were in the first century 4,200,000 Jews in the world. Jacobs remarks that this estimate is probably excessive."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jewish_population_comparisons#Ancient_and_medieval_times
Notice there is NO MENTION of any large population of Jews in Babylon and certainly not the "literally millions" you speak of. Church fathers have always held that Babylon was code for Rome and there is no account in Acts or Paul's letters of anyone going to Babylon, in fact the only references are Peter's and John's in Revelation. Now, Revelation speaks EXTENSIVELY of Babylon and it aludes to their power, yet we KNOW THERE WAS NO POWERFUL BABYLONIAN EMPIRE IN THE FIRST CENTURY. Therefore, we must conclude that Babylon means Rome.
The "Renew" adult education courses that are being used in many Catholic parishes now are based on the Catechism. They lead the students through the basic outline of the Catechism, with guides for discussion and further reading.
The courses are very popular in our parish, they are usually full. According to Renew, 20 dioceses and 7 archdioceses are participating in this program. So you can do the math = a bunch of Catholics who are reading their Catechism in detail.
As for the kids, I know they learn the Catechism in Confirmation class because I sat through a good part of it, plus they had a Catechism review course for the parents of confirmands, and I attended that too.
My daughter is teaching a Renew course at her college in Charlotte NC, one of the participating dioceses. They're getting around!
Your entire logic is circular. You start with the assumption that Peter was never in Rome, even though nobody ever suggested otherwise for nearly two thousand years, and then you find anti-Catholic sources to back you up.
I don't think that you have given everyone proof. You have given everyone an indication, a good indication, but not a proof.
Just as you did last time, you cobble together indications and probabilities and then put the result forward as a certainty. It's dicey to ague from "maybe" and "probably" to "certainly".
It's an interesting case. I think you are overstating it. And as I said the last time, you have not persuaded me that the instruction to go to the lost sheep of Israel reaches beyond the resurrection.
Thanks for this information, AAM
** I just hope this doesn't trigger a remark on Free Republic in the near future about how flawed our Catholic saintmaking process is!!**
Believe me I am no saint.
Pride is my biggest sin. We have been putting on these Faith formation 101 evenings for the third year now and we always have an evaluation form at the end of each series (Advent/Lent). Last week, a person who came to one for the FIRST time sent me an email with about seven criticisms in it about how we put on the evening. Some were legitmate -- like continuing to clear the table once the speaker had started speaking. Others were just nit-pik stuff. I talked with two other people during the week and they told me they were not offended by some of the things.
So I went to confession to a visiting priest. Oooooooooh. What did he give me for a penance. A whole Rosary. Haven't had one of those since I was a teenager.
So, still working on the pride.
The sloth is one that I am working on too. Although I consider all the volunteering I do at church as close to work -- and not sloth. Anyway......I procrastinate and don't get things done at home. Sounds like we might be soul-sisters.
BTW, I have always respected your feedback on any thread because of your thoughtfulness and ability to express yourself well and concisely. I tend to ramble. (must be the pride again..........LOL!)
May God continue to bless you.
Some of the extempore prayers and suggestions in the course guidebooks are a little too touchy-feely for me (I prefer my religion straight up and no nonsense - "muscular Christianity" I suppose) but you can always ignore them!
It attacks me from just about every angle and in a wide variety of disguises . . .
. . . and then the sloth gets after me. I can waste a whole morning doing "not much". . .
What sort of ministry are you involed with? Hospital? Prison? Those are two of the 24/7 ministires of which I am aware, excluding the life of a priest or minister, of course.
**So since Jerusalem was part of the Roman Empire, the sacerdotal chair could have been in Jerusalem?**
That's not what I said. I said the Roman Empire consumed a lot of nations at that time. Peter was the first Pope as pronounced by Jesus.
Just a question of interest here.
You got off on a tangent about the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Does your denomination or sect have such a listing of beliefs as contained in the CCC?
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