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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; Gamecock; The_Reader_David; xzins; Quix; HarleyD; Blogger; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
[Baptism] washes away our sins. If we die immediately after Baptism we should go straight to heaven. It's an act of adoption into the Body of Christ. What could be more salvific than that?

One ritual performed on an unsuspecting gets one into Heaven? That sounds pretty cheap. :) Southern Baptists and Reformers believe that it was Christ's blood that washed away our sins, not a ritual with water. It is blood that redeems:

Lev 17:11 : 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. KJV

Heb 9:22 : 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. KJV

In addition, we are justified by faith:

Rom 5:1 : 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: KJV

Gal 3:8-9 : 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. KJV

So, grace is not had by anything we do, because:

Rom 11:6 : 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. KJV

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FK: "Paul is correcting all those who believe that ritual is required to enter Heaven."

Right, he was re-inventing Judaism in the eyes of those present. I have news for you: Judaism was a liturgical religion with "rituals." If that is what +Paul was saying, then he is clearly in conflict with the Church, because these "rituals" are considered sacraments.

I actually agree with you that Paul is fully in conflict with the Church. I knew we could agree on something. :)

Of course, you can say they are only rituals, and I can say the Bible is only a book. The Jews followed the Law (of Moses given to him by God). The Law required "rituals."

Yes, the Law required rituals, but are we saved by rituals now? Do you think that the OT Jews were actually saved through rituals?

And God gave the Law to Moses. Please don't tell me Christ personally told +Paul to break the Law God gave to Moses.

No, Christ wouldn't say that. :) But Paul doesn't teach to break the Law. He confirms what was always true, that it is by grace we are saved through faith.

9,150 posted on 02/06/2007 1:07:24 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
One ritual performed on an unsuspecting gets one into Heaven?

Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. Christ did not call +John the Baptist a liar. Nor did anyone call it a ritual.

We believe that sacraments are accomplished by the Holy Spirit. They are not rituals.

To a Muslim or a Jew, the New Testament is "just a book." To you it's a word of God. To us a sacrament is grace; to you ti is an empty ritual.

Don't try to be 'logical' when it comes to blind faith, FK. Any faith is a presumption.

Southern Baptists and Reformers believe that it was Christ's blood that washed away our sins, not a ritual with water

Yeah, I know, cozy and easy. All your sins, past, present and the future ones are paid for. Don't worry, be happy; and sin as much as you want. It's all "covered."

Lev 17:11 : 11

I thought the law was not salvific.

Heb 9:22 : 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission

We need to make up our minds here, if you know what I mean...it is the law or not?

Yes, the Law required rituals, but are we saved by rituals now? Do you think that the OT Jews were actually saved through rituals?

The OT Jews did not feel a need to be saved. Judaism does not believe man needs to be saved. The messianic era of Judaism a century or so before Christ was not seeking to 'save' individuals but to restore the Kingdom of Israel.

But the Jews believe that if you live a decent life (accoridng to the Law), do charity, etc. you will be acceptable to God. Those who do whatwe know are immoral things won't. The Jews don't go further than that, sort of trusting that whatever happens will be God's decision and it will be good.

If Moses says that burnt offerings atone for your sins, and +Paul says that faith makes you just before God, why should I believe +Paul any more than Moses? I have no proof that either is telling the truth. Neither do you.

9,280 posted on 02/06/2007 4:22:31 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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