Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: annalex; The_Reader_David; wmfights
Douay translates:

This is accurate in the historical context

I see. It is accurate in the historical context but is it accurate in the linguistic context? Not that I can tell. The actual rendering of the verse should be:

Please note how this was changed in the Douay translation. I am, so far, unclear as if it was changed in the Vulgate. I suspect not since my reference is from the KJV which is based on the Vulgate. This would mean that the Douay translation is poor at best or has some other motive for the way it has altered the scripture.

In the text (Matt 26:3), the word for chief priest is "archiereus", the word for scribe is "grammateus", and for elders "presbuteros". These are three different and distinct groups of people; not lumped together as "ancient of the people". (I'm sure they wouldn't be too happy with that term.)

Reader_David made a valid point that another word is used in scripture for priest but the English word "priest" is derived from the term for "elder, bishop" through "presbuteros". I can understand that logic. However, it creates problems in Titus 1:5 in trying to claim that Paul was talking about "ordaining priests". Priest is only an English derivation of a term-not the actual group of people as Paul is talking about.

4,922 posted on 01/10/2007 1:02:24 PM PST by HarleyD ("...even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near Himself." Num 16:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4909 | View Replies ]


To: HarleyD; The_Reader_David; wmfights
The Bible, even the New Testament is a collection of many books each with its own phraseology and historical reference. It describes a very fluid situation, when one religion more or less supplated the other. Naturally, the usage changed, and it continued to change following the closure of the Canon. To mechanically force the same word as translation across books and timeframes is to introduce confusion not intended by either St. Matthew or St. Paul.

In recent time many words changed their meaning or aquired new meanings nearly obscuring the old. Consider "missile" or "to compile" or "gay". If one were to translate "three gay caballeros" with the same foreign word as in "gay marriage", he would not be doing a correct translation either linguistically or historically because he would not be following the intent of the native speaker in at least one case of the two.

"Presbyteros" means both elder/ancient and priest. "Hiereus" means Jewish or pagan priest, and Christian priest only by extension in the contexts such as the letter to the Hebrews. In the context of the trial of Jesus, the archpriest refers to a Jewish hierarch, and "presbyteros" has to refer to some popular leader since there has been no Eucharistic practice yet, and so no Christian priests.

The actual rendering of the verse should be

Fine. All you did is substitute "elder" for "ancient". Both translations correctly avoid "priest" because St. Matthew did not mean either a Christian priest or a Jewish priest; but St. Paul surely did mean a Christian priest in Titus and Timothy, when the Church was functioning.

4,926 posted on 01/10/2007 1:40:05 PM PST by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4922 | View Replies ]

To: HarleyD; annalex; The_Reader_David
However, it creates problems in Titus 1:5 in trying to claim that Paul was talking about "ordaining priests".

Paul goes into great detail about the qualities to be looked for in individuals that should be in leadership, but PAUL does not pick the next generation of leaders.

The point being, if the Theory of Apostolic Succession is based on the Apostles picking the next generation of leaders in the church it falls.

Paul explains in Acts 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers,..

Ordination, or the laying on of hands occurred AFTER the Holy Spirit had moved and gifted the individual.

4,939 posted on 01/10/2007 4:53:08 PM PST by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4922 | View Replies ]

To: HarleyD
[The_]Reader_David made a valid point that another word is used in scripture for priest but the English word "priest" is derived from the term for "elder, bishop" through "presbuteros". I can understand that logic. However, it creates problems in Titus 1:5 in trying to claim that Paul was talking about "ordaining priests". Priest is only an English derivation of a term-not the actual group of people as Paul is talking about.

I disagree with your conclusion. The Christian office of presbyteros is still called presbyteros in Greek, and is called priest (or occasionally presbyter) in English. My parish priest (by the grace of God and our metropolitan, he also happens to be the senior priest of our Archdiocese) was a presbyteros (or priest) of the Church of Greece for eight years. Whether you speak English and say 'priest', Greek and say 'presbyteros', or Arabic and say 'khoury' is quite inconsequential, the office is the same, and is the one to which the Holy Apostle referred in his instructions to Titus.

Nor is it clear that you can interchange 'presbyteros' and 'episcopos', though certainly in the early Church it was normative for the bishop (again an English translation of the Greek, in this case 'episcopos', derived from the Greek word) to hold the presidency of the Eucharist, now most commonly exercised by priests by delegation of authority, so the offices may have been identical initially until the Church spread beyond its initial urban setting.

4,964 posted on 01/10/2007 6:39:02 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4922 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson