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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; Alamo-Girl; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
... Gnostics believed in gnosis, the knowledge of God enabled by secret teachings. - Wikipedia...I fail to see how talking about whether the soul is propagated or created is Gnostic in light of the definition.

HD it helps to go beyond summaries and actually learn something about the subject, and I don't mean this personally but as a matter of principle.

You may wish to read the posts you apparently missed, such as 13,897, and 13,844 in order to get all the references I posted (which I am not going to post again).

I would also like to say that Orgien's Gnostic teaching of the pre-existent souls is Christianity 101, which teaching was even publicly condemned by the 5th Œcumenical Council. And I must admit that the discovery of an active pre-fab soul belief among Protestants is a real eye-opener.

13,920 posted on 05/03/2007 8:38:02 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; Alamo-Girl; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
HD it helps to go beyond summaries and actually learn something about the subject, and I don't mean this personally but as a matter of principle. You may wish to read the posts you apparently missed, such as 13,897, and 13,844 in order to get all the references I posted (which I am not going to post again).

Post #13,844 and #13,897 are two different arguments. In post #13,844 you are discussing traducianism/creationism, or whether souls are created or propagated. In this post you argued that souls are propagated-not created. In post #13,897 you are dealing with the trichotomy/dichotomy argument, which deals with whether man has a “body, soul and spirit” or just a “body and soul”. I’m not going to discuss the trichotomy/dichotomy views simply because I don’t think there is enough evidence to discuss the point either way. However, one should be able to understand very clearly that the traducianism/creationism and the trichotomy/dichotomy arguments are two different and completely separate issues.

My post was in regards to your traducianism/creationism argument in post #13,844. You made a statement that it is Gnostic and pagan to believe in the pre-existent theory. Yet when provided scriptural evidence (such as Ecc 12) to the contrary it is ignored. God breathed into Adam his soul, meaning that Adam soul must have existed before Adam existed. Christ’s soul existed prior to His birth-it must have since there are multiple examples in the Old Testament of Christ’s appearances (such as Melchizedek).

Why this is such an important issue is that you would have us believe that the creator of souls is man. One would hope they would see the error of this since God created ALL things. Man does not create anything-through propagation or otherwise.

I am not a student of Origen, but a reading of what he taught states that he “espoused a Platonic view of eternal souls achieving perfection while escaping the temporary, imperfect material world. He imagined even demons being reunited with God.” Quite frankly, this sounds like a variation of the Catholic view of purgatory. And, not to offend, but isn’t the Orthodox view one of man getting more and more like Christ as he sheds off the things of this world? This sound far more in keeping with Origen’s view than us “westerners”.

13,935 posted on 05/04/2007 5:22:36 AM PDT by HarleyD
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