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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; marron; kosta50
That which is perfect doesn’t change, Quix.

I think kosta50 is right abut this, Quix: If a thing is already "perfect," how, in what direction, could it change? You don't get "more perfect" than perfect. Perfect implies a certain completedness in time, and thus something that is static: something impervious to time and change.

I think kosta50 has verified the business that the better construct in English is completed, finished, whole.

However, I think that even with the distortion from the original that "perfect" is . . . it is a finite--and our particularly human finite perversion of the notion of "perfect" that insists there could be NO CHANGE.

WHO ARE WE to tell GOD!!!! THAT HIS PERFECT canNOT include DIVINELY PERFECT, ONGOING, ETERNAL CHANGE IN ANY ASPECT, FACTOR, COMPONENT? We, in our finiteness, REALLY do NOT KNOW what "HE CHANGES NOT" means exhaustively, comprehensive, thoroughly. The most plausible thing, to me, is that it 'merely' means HIS NATURE DOES NOT CHANGE.

That leaves a list of comphrehensible aspects, behaviors, factors that WE HUMANS CAN CONCEIVE OF and an unknown number we can't conceive of--which could easily involve DYNAMIC CREATIVE CHANGE.

But we do not have completedness in creation before the final Judgment, which is where the perfection of God's creation is achieved -- not before. God created a "good," not a "perfect" creation, as He Himself says.... "Goodness" accords with His purpose; "perfection" would leave no room for development toward God's end or goal in creating. There would also be no role for man, for human free will in a "perfect" universe.

I can't imagine The CREATION . . . the MULTI-VERSE or however we care to Biblically construe it . . . I can't imagine it EVER being "complete." That would require, imply, translate into God being a much smaller GOD ALMIGHTY THAN THE GOD ALMIGHTY I observe in Scripture and in my pico-gram's worth of observed REALITY.

Of course, if creation were not involved in a time process (according to God's Will), then we wouldn't need to be discussing such things.... But since creation is involved in a time process (i.e., it develops or evolves in part in collaboration with man), Augustine's remark -- "The perfect is the enemy of the good" -- seems both faithful and reasonable to me.

I'm beginning to think that our finite construct "perfection" is a perverted trap of the enemy. Certainly in human psychology and relationships it's extremely destructive.

Yet, we have the Scripture about being perfect as He is perfect--yet that clearly doesn't mean in this time/space dimension before RESURRECTION/TRANSLATION into our Heavenly bodies--unless He's going to make some interesting exceptions in these END TIMES for a portion or all of those PERFECT IN HIS BLOOD.

But the notion that PERFECT is some sort of static, UNDYNAMIC, MOTIONLESS, DEAD BLOB sort of state of being just does NOT resonate with any understanding I have at all about DADDY, SON, SPIRIT. NONE. None, at all.

The GOD ALMIGHTY I KNOW is the OPPOSITE OF STATIC, UNdynamic, MOTIONLESS, DEAD.

imho, of course.

12,754 posted on 04/15/2007 7:24:33 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: Quix; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; marron; kosta50; Kolokotronis
WHO ARE WE to tell GOD!!!! THAT HIS PERFECT canNOT include DIVINELY PERFECT, ONGOING, ETERNAL CHANGE IN ANY ASPECT, FACTOR, COMPONENT? We, in our finiteness, REALLY do NOT KNOW what "HE CHANGES NOT" means exhaustively, comprehensive, thoroughly. The most plausible thing, to me, is that it 'merely' means HIS NATURE DOES NOT CHANGE. ...... But the notion that PERFECT is some sort of static, UNDYNAMIC, MOTIONLESS, DEAD BLOB sort of state of being just does NOT resonate with any understanding I have at all about DADDY, SON, SPIRIT. NONE. None, at all.

Yes, I fully agree. That is, to the extent I understand what you all are talking about. :) I see "perfect" as being a very relative term. We can talk about a perfect "thing", such as a car. Such a car would never rust, never need repairs, and would never wear out in any way. That is static. OTOH, we could talk about "perfect" as being an action in a particular circumstance, or better, a perfect application of a perfect idea in a particular circumstance. That is dynamic, and involves what we might perceive as "change".

For example, Israel faced many different enemies in the OT and in many cases the God-led solution to "perfect" victory was different. In one case the answer was to "plague" the enemy into submission. In another, it was to kill every living member of the whole community of the enemy, including animals. In another, it was to kill only one (Goliath). In each case, the results were roughly the same, victory for Israel, but they were arrived at by extremely different means. I submit that all were "perfect" solutions given the circumstances. That includes the zillion number of variables that God factored into each solution that are well beyond our comprehension.

Therefore, it is not correct to say there is one "perfect" solution for every enemy faced (along with a myriad of other examples). It IS dynamic, as I think your point is, and the standard against which perfection is measured is God's essence, through His will. When God wanted perfect victory for the Israelites, that never changed, it always happened. It was the application of that desire which changed, according to God's perfect will.

13,326 posted on 04/23/2007 6:05:38 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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