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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; Blogger; kosta50; Quester; HarleyD

" Just the opening statement tells me everything I really need to know about this man on this subject. First, with all due respect, right out of the chute he is blatantly misleading. He says "As long as we are in the hand of God ..." and then connects that to John 10:28. It isn't even close:

John 10:28 : 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. KJV

The preface is an outside conclusion he has drawn from somewhere, not this scripture. The reader who didn't bother to look up the verse would be very misled."

Your problem is with the English translation of the Greek verb "pluck" or "snatch". The form is one for a third party actor. The Greek is only referring to third parties, FK, not ourselves and says absolutely nothing about falling out of God's hand, or jumping out, or "plucking oneself" out, all of which could have been said but weren't. +John Chrysostomos understood Greek quite well, FK. As for him plucking his interpretation out of thin air, well all I can say is that his exegesis is consistent with what the other Fathers wrote and believed. When it comes to the idea that one cannot jump out of God's hand, that's simply a Protestant innovation with absolutely no basis whatsoever in the Greek text. No Father ever taught what you propose.

"Is it correct then that the Orthodox do not hold to any notion of election or predestination?"

I think it is safe to say that Orthodoxy does not hold with the notion of predestination as taught by Calvin. Indeed, that has been expressly declared heresy. Election is a more complex matter. Here's a link to an essay on the issue from the GOA website:

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article9285.asp

Its called "The People of God, An Orthodox Perspective. I think it will answer your question.


10,626 posted on 02/15/2007 2:56:03 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; annalex; Blogger; kosta50; Quester; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
Your problem is with the English translation of the Greek verb "pluck" or "snatch". The form is one for a third party actor. The Greek is only referring to third parties, FK, not ourselves and says absolutely nothing about falling out of God's hand, or jumping out, or "plucking oneself" out, all of which could have been said but weren't.

But this interpretation defies other scripture. In all of the "sheep verses", is there an example of one of Christ's sheep wandering away to be lost permanently? I'm not aware of one. Christ's sheep are believers:

John 10:14 : 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—

John 10:26 : ... but you do not believe because you are not my sheep .

Luke 15:3-7 : 3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep .' 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Did Jesus practice what He preached? :) Did He go after and retrieve ALL of His lost sheep? In addition, you are right that it says nothing about jumping out or plucking oneself out, but that's because it would make no logical sense. Throughout these verses we have the father-child motif going. Under the interpretation you state we have a father who would go to all lengths to prevent anyone else from harming his child. However, if the child decided to harm himself the father would stand idly by and do nothing to save him. This bears zero resemblance to human experience. As parents, don't we know that our children perhaps MOST often need protection from themselves? :) Here, under this interpretation, God falls down on the job when He's needed most.

Thanks for the link to "The People of God, An Orthodox Perspective". I didn't read every word, but I think I got the general idea :

The identity of the "people of God" as being the elect, or called by God, is manifested in the fellowship (koinonia) they have with Christ.

In a way of thinking, this sounds reasonable and there were other similar quotes. I did get the impression that the determination of the elect within time isn't made until after death in the vast majority of cases so this would tend to shy away from even the RCC view of election based on foreknowledge. It didn't seem to me that individuals were elected as such, but rather groups were. People could flow in and out of those groups.

10,879 posted on 02/20/2007 1:21:12 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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