Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
That's a major understatement. How about saying that there is absolutely no scriptural precedent for praying to the dead at all. All biblical teachings about prayer have God as the recipient of prayer from living people.
The reason to believe part of your statement is where I disagree completely. Believing in prayer to the dead involved believing that there is an avenue to God that is completely unmentioned in the bible, therefore the bible is incomplete.
I know that people that want to pray to saints and angels will continue, but lets just admit that it never once happens in the bible.
And eventually, many Protestants come full circle and return to the Church as it has existed for two thousand years.
Unfortunately, you are correct. After the Rapture.
Then he was wrong too. The Reformation was just the beginning of the turn back to scripture and the true teachings of Christ and the Apostles, not the end. Wherever error is found it must be exposed to the Light.
He didn't believe the same things that you all believe today because some of these things were not even dogma in the 1500s.
Also, he is not praying to statues. He is just praying. The statues are another piece of artwork in the room.
Please cite anywhere, in any translation, where the word "rapture" appears.
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. (Proverbs 26:11 KJV)
I think that the Protestant belief would be that one is elect before the foundation of the world. This is also scripturally correct (Mt. 25). The Protestant belief stemming fron this one is wrong: the notion that "saved" is a one time event in the life of man. It is not: one has been saved by the sacrifice of Christ, continues to be saved by working on his faith through his life time, and hopefully but not surely will end up saved at the end of his life in the Particular Judgement. With fear and trembling work out your salvation for it is God working in you.
He was making a point
That I realize; but the "point", the false doctrine of surety of salvation, objectively encourages cavalier attitude about sin.
You are correct as to the timing of election. It is before the foundation of the world. Not after the sinner prays.
Again, you are completely mistaken. The fact that the dogmas were not defined, does not mean that they were not recognized. One of Luther's most passionate sermons on the Holy Mother was preached on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.
Also, he is not praying to statues. He is just praying. The statues are another piece of artwork in the room.
By common Protestant reasoning, these are idols and someone might be inclined to pray to them.
However, Lutherans STILL adhere to Marian beliefs that are remarkably similar to Catholicism's.
Please cite in Scripture where the word "trinity" appears.
You see I don't need to. I don't adhere to a 16th Century heresy that says that unless something is explicitely explained, by name, in scripture, that it is invalid.
Incidentally, here is a citation
1 Thessalonians 4:18
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus
Then neither do I need to answer your question. However, I did in the previous post.
(Darn! Now MY wife will be wanting one.)
Yes, I'll concede that probably no one asks him for intercession. But I might ask the janitor to pray for me. Do I think the janior greater the Luther?
It's interesting. We think the saints are with us. We think that asking is asking, whether you call it "prayer" or "bidding" or "requesting" or "asking".
It seems inceasingly arbitrary. God is here and always accessible to the faithful, why post on Free Republic? Why not just tell HIM what we think? Why be concerned with what other humans, alive or dead, think?
We are told it's "sad" that we think we "need" to pray to saints, but yet Protestants gather in places to pray together and to observe ordinances and read the Bible and discuss it and do all manner of things that aren't directly and simply addressed in one-on-one communion with God.
The more I look at it, the sillier it seems. I talk to God and try to listen to Him. I talk or write to you and try to "hear" what you say. I pray for you, and I hope at some point during this conversation you have prayed for me.
I like to say that for us "catholic" is not just an 'extensive' attribute of the Church, but 'intensive'. All activities which are not intrinsically sinful fall under God's purview, and just as a stranger might turn out to be an angel, so any event may turn out to be one of grace-bearing communication between any of us and God.
SO, (struggling here) I am less troubled by what looks like a sense of discontinuity, than it seems some Protestants are. I have many friends and acquaintances. Some have died. Some I never met before they died. Some haven't died yet. They're all my friends. In such a wide circle of friends, there are some before whom I feel very humble (and shy) indeed and some whom seem to radiate holiness. But I have also prayed in a sally port with a check forger who saw the cross on my shoulder boards and asked me to pray with and for her. I didn't feel like she was worshipping me. It was more like she was feeling, "OH! At LAST! Somebody to pray with!" And also standing at a holding cell or even using an intercom to pray with a bad guy who is about to be tried, or listening to a prisoner talk about his faith as I shackled, cuffed, and chained him up, having looked in his mouth and asked him to raise his tongue to make sure he was hiding nothing there, and having patted him down prety intrusively.... I've found a lot of holy places.
So, I also have occasionally prayed before a statue of Our Lady. I didn't think she was "there". I thought, and think, she is here.
We don't pray to the dead.
We pray that God may have mercy on the souls of those who have departed the life on earth, and we pray for mercy on the souls of those who are still living on earth.
We also ask the saints to pray for us, as we ask of our congregations to pray for us.
There is no death in those who are in Christ.
Your tagline speaks of the Jews whose sciptures did not reveal that. If they could have received the full truth from the OT, there would have been no need for the new one (cf Hebrews).
Ping 5057
I have escaped reading Huxley. God is kind and gracious and His mercy endures forever.
We don't ask Saints who have gone to heaven to pray for us. We do ask people here on earth.
Why did they put the flowers there? Because they loved him. Because they wanted to do something to remember him.
They don't pray to Luther.
Why do Christians get together and pray and discuss? Because the Bible tells us to. The Bible doesn't tell us to pray to those who have already gone to glory though. But we shouldn't forsake the assembly of ourselves together here, we should pray for one another here, and we should edify one another.
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