Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
That's only part of the case. The articles BD posted also showed provable historical errors, AND clear contradictions with other scripture, along with other evidence.
Maybe I should treat the OT Duets the same way my Apostolic friends have. Between this thread and the other one, let's say that 1,000 authoritative references have been posted to me by you all. If 500 have been from scripture I recognize and 497 have been quotes from the Fathers and the like, then MAYBE 3 have been from the OT Duets. I have really noticed that and figure it must mean something.
"Duets" = "Deuts". Dang spellchecker should have known what I meant. :)
Any Scripture on that one? And how does the Spirit reveal what the Canon is? Through Joe Smoe? Please...
Ah, so your men DO work independently from the Spirit. This must be so since you appear to disagree with my statement and seek to take credit away from God and install it into men. Not surprising. However, I would use all the scripture that shows that His word is true, such as 2 Tim. 3:16. If mere men really were able to declare with authority to God's Church that non-scripture was in fact scripture, then all scriptures fail at once. The only way to assure inerrancy would be if God controlled the whole thing. To a large degree, we see this immediately in which NT writings the early Church followed, before the Canon.
"if I tarry long, that thou may know how it is expedient to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth" 1 Tim 3:15
I think that we would agree that God is the basis for truth. The Church does not create or manufacture truth, ... it simply transmits the truths that God has already revealed.
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to all truth. Did God promise this to the Jews before Jesus came?
God promised (in Jeremiah 29) that all that sought Him ... would find Him. Is this the assurance you are looking for ?Jeremiah 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.I do not believe that the Church has lost the truth. I just don't believe that the Catholic Church (or any other particular segment of the Church) ... has all of the truth.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Jesus made much of the scriptures
Not sure what you mean by that ...
Jesus based His ministry upon the revealed truths of God in the Hebrew scriptures.
When asked a question, or challenged, (as He often was) Jesus would always appeal to the scriptures (i.e. It is written, What saith the scriptures ..., Search the scriptures, etc.)
I don't think that it is a bad idea at all to follow His example in this.
What is His example? To go off and invent your own interpretation of Scriptures?
To make scripture the basis for one's chrisitan life and ministry.
Jesus told the Apostles to obey the Pharisees - but not to imitate their hypocrisy.
There is obviously some caveat here ... for if the Apostles had rigidly followed the Pharisees ... they wouldn't have been following Jesus ... for the Pharisees opposed Jesus.
I believe that Jesus is, here, reaffirming the Pharisees role as the keepers of the Law, ... and that, if one was to follow the Law, one would necessarily have to heed the Pharisees teaching.
Because they are not your children. Your children are those that you fathered, i.e. the ones who who are your human creation.
God created all the people in the world; every one of us was given a soul by God.
God is not partial.
If all people are God's children, then you would have God standing at the street corner, watching billions of His beloved children walk right passed Him, fail to look both ways, and step right out in front of a bus. That isn't love to me
Everyone is appointed to die, FK. So, according to your formula those who live a long life are God's children and those who die young are not?
We are all idiots when it comes to God. Maybe that's why He gave us the Church, which you reject, I suppose, because you are too smart. :)
As you mention, however (and this is crucial) he (Jerome) submitted to the wisdom and the Apostolic authority of the Church.
That's the key difference between us and some Protestants... They submit only to themselves.
And Catholics submit to whom ?
Protestants certainly submit to biblical authority.
We submit to Protestant authority and the canonized writings of the Apostles.
The issue is whom we find to be scripturally authoritative ... and we don't find any particular scriptural authority ... in the Catholic Church.
The key difference ... is whom we find to be authoritative.
FK, the "no one" applies "snatching," not "falling." Get it? Probably not.
If someone else tried to push your child off a cliff, why that would be terrible and you would step right in to save your child's life,/i>
Traffic/cliff examples...it's like reading a fairytale. Did God not let Adam and Eve 'jump off a cliff' or 'jump in front of a bus' and commit suicide? Not only did they die, but all subsequent generations must! We are not talking about Santa, FK.
God doesn't work that way
No, He sure doesn't.
So, in addition to loving your children you had to be to provide for them? It would be too presumptuous of me to that love would make one care for his children!
Yes, exactly. Ping to 10,843.
Interesting discussion on canon. I have an observation that it seems three variations are proposed:
1) The Church and Tradition (RC/Orthodox) determined, guided by Holy Spirit
2) The Church and Tradition (Luther/Protestant) determined, guided by Holy Spirit
3) Each Individual determines, guided by the Holy Spirit
I think everyone in the discussion is arguing for one of these three.
The first two are both choosing an authority (an informed choice I hope we could agree).
The third, I believe, is a practical impossibility; you couldn't expect each person to be a linguist, a historian and a theologian.
Which would lead to a fourth possible variation:
4) Each individual determines based on his own and based on his selected authorities.
It's obvious who is supports 1). Thus far I believe Blogger is in the 3) camp. Are the rest in 2) or 4)?
Actually D-fendr, your #3 is not accurate as to my view, though you are correct in that I am not in the other 3 camps. I would state my view as God Almighty determined the Canon and leads his children as to what it is.
Here is the corrected text for whst it's worth:
So, in addition to loving your children you had to be commanded to provide for them? It would be too presumptuous of me to think that love would make one care for his children!
Indeed. Thanks.
Actually, to me, The Canon was decided much the same way Paul exhorts the local congregation to vet prophetic/word of knowledge etc. stuff in it's midst--prayerful pondering and discernment as a group.
Thankfully, after 300+ years, the church seemed to have a pretty reasonable sense of what God had blessed as The Canon.
thanks for your correction.
Please explain?
God determined the Canon; this being the Protestant Canon.
God leads his children as to what it is; leads his children to the Protestant Canon.
I'm not sure if I'm explaining your view properly or how this is effected?
FWIW, I found this article helpful:
Score one for Forest Keeper: the Orthodox refer to the Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils as the 'Harps of the Spirit'. The Sixth Ecumenical Council fixed the canon of Scripture--it was indeed the Holy Spirit acting.
So why is it you are fighting against the judgement of those who were merely instruments of the Holy Spirit and rejecting the complete versions of Daniel, Esther, and Jeremiah, and the books of Tobit, Judith, Sirach, the Wisdom of Solomon and both books of the Maccabees?
Great post, b-d.
It seems in theology there is no more reviled word than "Predestination." We don't like to be told we're not in control. We struggle to reconcile how it is that everything already has been willed into time and space by God from before the foundation of the world while at the same time everything feels so immediate, so surprising, so changeable.
God's sovereign Predestination of all things is an almost incomprehensible thought. Yet the more we think on it and study it in Scripture, the more beautiful and confident the word becomes.
If there is a God, and if He is the God of the Bible, and if He is creator of heaven and earth, and if He sent His Son to redeem His flock, and if we have been graced with faith in Him who shoulders our sins and pays for them Himself, then what is there to fear in God's perfect and all-encompassing predestining will?
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." -- Ephesians 4:5-6"One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Great post, b-d.
It seems in theology there is no more reviled word than "Predestination." We don't like to be told we're not in control. We struggle to reconcile how it is that everything already has been willed into time and space by God from before the foundation of the world while at the same time everything feels so immediate, so surprising, so changeable.
God's sovereign Predestination of all things is an almost incomprehensible thought. Yet the more we think on it and study it in Scripture, the more beautiful and confident the word becomes.
If there is a God, and if He is the God of the Bible, and if He is creator of heaven and earth, and if He sent His Son to redeem His flock, and if we have been graced with faith in Him who shoulders our sins and pays for them Himself, then what is there to fear in God's perfect and all-encompassing predestining will?
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." -- Ephesians 4:5-6"One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.