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To: HarleyD; Gamecock
"Do you or the Catholic Church as it now stands believe Augustine's statement-that faith is only given as a gift to a few?"

Howdie HD!

I have no idea what the RCC believes on this.

I know that "not all have faith". But I also know that God has made His eternal power and divine nature clear to all men via Creation.

Now back to the (non-Apostolic) Church fathers...

Do you have any? I'm not looking for a "gotcha" moment here, I've just come across several sources that state that strict predestination and the denial of free will was not known or believed in the post Apostolic Church till Calvin - Augustine being the possible one exception.
146 posted on 04/21/2006 10:47:46 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Gamecock
Now back to the (non-Apostolic) Church fathers... Do you have any? I'm not looking for a "gotcha" moment here, I've just come across several sources that state that strict predestination and the denial of free will was not known or believed in the post Apostolic Church till Calvin - Augustine being the possible one exception.

Hi PM... Trying to move on by saying, "Augustine was the exception now try to find me ONE Church Father who agree with your position", is a tad bit disingenuous don't you think? I do enjoy how the Catholics revere Augustine and then distances themselves from his statements by 1) denying he really said anything, 2) saying that he really didn't mean what he said, or 3) saying the most premier early church father spoke as a lone wolf. I could understand people saying, "Sure, Augustine said so-n-so but he was wrong." I find it unbelievable that people would brush him aside as insignificant as though he doesn't count.

There are a number of scholars far better than you or I who have traced the Reformed belief back to Augustine. If you were to simply, and objectively, read Augustine apart from the Church telling you how to interpret him, you can clearly see strong shades of Reformed theology in his writings. I know. Calvin didn't convinced me. It was Augustine's writings that convinced me. That's not to say I agree with everything in his writings. It is to say that his basic premises are correct.

You do a disservice to yourself not to admit that a good portion of Augustine's writings did sow the seeds for the Reformation.

205 posted on 04/21/2006 4:34:49 PM PDT by HarleyD ("...even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near Himself." Num 16:5)
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