Why Calvin Is Cool; An Infomercial for Calvinism

The Internet Monk ^ | Michael Spencer

[YHAOS]

"The actions of Queen Mary pale by comparison to what the Protestants did to the Catholic recusants."

Let it go! When too often you try to justify actions with comparisons against the actions of others, the practice becomes least effecrtive when its use is most appropriate and most needed.

[jude24]

By the way, and though I'm a little afraid to ask, what is a neener?

They're non-Calvinists who basically are poking fun of the GRPL Calvinist ping list. The Neeners were the opposition in the Great Calvinist War of 2002-2004.

No, I am not a member of the Neeners. I am unaffiliated after I left the GRPL because of ... unpleasantness.

[alpha-8-25-02]

ann?

[nobdysfool]

No, I am not a member of the Neeners. I am unaffiliated after I left the GRPL because of ... unpleasantness.

The truth is, Jude24 was removed from the GRPL rolls because of ...unpleasantness.

[HarleyD]

Now back to the (non-Apostolic) Church fathers... Do you have any? I'm not looking for a "gotcha" moment here, I've just come across several sources that state that strict predestination and the denial of free will was not known or believed in the post Apostolic Church till Calvin - Augustine being the possible one exception.

Hi PM... Trying to move on by saying, "Augustine was the exception now try to find me ONE Church Father who agree with your position", is a tad bit disingenuous don't you think? I do enjoy how the Catholics revere Augustine and then distances themselves from his statements by 1) denying he really said anything, 2) saying that he really didn't mean what he said, or 3) saying the most premier early church father spoke as a lone wolf. I could understand people saying, "Sure, Augustine said so-n-so but he was wrong." I find it unbelievable that people would brush him aside as insignificant as though he doesn't count.

There are a number of scholars far better than you or I who have traced the Reformed belief back to Augustine. If you were to simply, and objectively, read Augustine apart from the Church telling you how to interpret him, you can clearly see strong shades of Reformed theology in his writings. I know. Calvin didn't convinced me. It was Augustine's writings that convinced me. That's not to say I agree with everything in his writings. It is to say that his basic premises are correct.

You do a disservice to yourself not to admit that a good portion of Augustine's writings did sow the seeds for the Reformation.

[HarleyD]

We would differ with St. Augustine...

Wow!!! You're the first Catholic that told me that!!! You're not far from Orthodox now.... :O)

Do you now agree with Augustine's statement in the same work you quote that the OT Book of Wisdom is canonical scripture? ;-)

No. The early church fathers didn't agree that it was canonical. ;O)

[Corin Stormhands]

The truth is, Jude24 was removed from the GRPL rolls because of ...unpleasantness.

Which, pretty much up until your post, we've been managing to avoid repeating.

[nobdysfool]

Which, pretty much up until your post, we've been managing to avoid repeating.Corin, it's nice to see you, too. How are things in the Hobbit Hole?

[nobdysfool]

Which, pretty much up until your post, we've been managing to avoid repeating.

Corin, it's nice to see you, too. How are things in the Hobbit Hole?

(sorry that last one didn't come out formatted right....)

[Corin Stormhands]

We're doing well, thanks.

[blue-duncan]

" we have shields and battle cries."

And don't forget that ever popular breakout of the holy huddle cheer, "There's no God like Jehovah, there's no God like Jehovah, there's no God like Jehovah, there's no God like Jehovah, yeah"!

By the way, did you ever notice how much Gamecock's pictures of Calvin in Rome or where ever, remind you of that Travelocity gnome?

[jude24]

If NF want's to be nasty - and misrepresent the facts - he harms only himself.

My ultimatum - even if it may have been misguided - is still up for all to see.

[xzins]

The uber-Reformed elder in my Presbyterian church is a Starbucks connoisseur. No Taster's Choice in this church. So we're okay coffee-wise.

I don't mean to condescend, but knowing Starbucks is not the same as knowing good coffee.

Neeners know what SweetMaria's and FreshCoffeeBeans.com know.....home roasted is real coffee.

Starbucks is stale. And seriously overpriced for a cup (or bag) of stale coffee.

(BTW...Get some of the Maria's Ethiopian Harrar. African is the best, and Ethiopian the best of the best, imho. Although I had some great El Salvador recently.)

Go here for a great education in coffee that is part of the "Neener Benefit List" (if we had a list.) Ethiopian Harrar Horse

[jude24]

And don't forget that ever popular breakout of the holy huddle cheer, "There's no God like Jehovah, there's no God like Jehovah, there's no God like Jehovah, there's no God like Jehovah, yeah"!

Haven't heard that bridge in a LONG time.

By the way, did you ever notice how much Gamecock's pictures of Calvin in Rome or where ever, remind you of that Travelocity gnome?

I think it's hysterical. When can we see John Calvin bobble his way through Istanbul (which was once Constantinople, now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople)?

[P-Marlowe]

And don't forget that ever popular breakout of the holy huddle cheer

CYBERCOLUMN:
The holy huddle
___Yale professor Jaroslav Pelikan once observed: "Many a congregation looks and acts like a football huddle: You know that a very important conversation is going on, but all you ever see are the behinds."
___Many churches assume the backside-to-anyone-who-is-not-one-of-us formation. The

BRETT YOUNGER

oldtimers enjoy each other. The newcomers wait to be greeted until they go home unwelcomed.
___ Churches welcome guests in a variety of ways. Some pastors begin worship with: "I'd like all of our members to stand. Visitors should stay seated so that we can look down on you." Some congregations ask visitors to fill out cards at the beginning of the service, so they can recognize guests from the pulpit at the end. This has led visiting parents to tell visiting children to put their hands down as ushers distribute the cards. Some churches try to get around this with, "If you are seated next to a visitor, raise their hand." Cards include nametags, which identify the wearer as "Visitor," "Guest," or "Prospective Worker." I once visited a church where the minister told the congregation to tell 10 people, "God loves you, and I do, too" and hug them. My wife, Carol, was the only one to hug me. Lots of people hugged Carol.
___ Compulsory spontaneity may not be the way to go, but a friendly welcome is important. Visitors looking for a church home expect to make friends at church. If we don't speak, then we may give the mistaken impression that we're not fun people.
___ One of the obstacles is knowing who is a visitor and who isn't. We know the fear of asking, "Are you a visitor?" and hearing, "No, I'm a charter member." We are then tempted to say, "You should come more often." It's safer to ask, "Have you been here before?" If they answer "yes," you can say, "I thought you looked familiar." If they say "no," you can respond, "I thought you looked unfamiliar."
___ We need to help one another in identifying visitors. A simple hand signal--perhaps a 'V' would work. We'll need to be careful when signaling, because visitors, like deer, are easily frightened. Sharing information is essential. For example: "That's Sandra. She moved here from Dallas. Don't mention her hair color."
___ It's extremely important to remember visitors' names. I use clever mnemonic devices. If a visitor's name is Victor Vincent I think "Victor, Vincent, and visitor all begin with V." If a guest's name is Jake More, because I am at Lake Shore Baptist Church, I think "Jake More rhymes with Lake Shore." If a visitor's name is Cal Berry, then hope your church's name is Calvary.
___ If you still don't remember a name, don't be embarrassed. Pretend you do. Cleverly cover the fact you don't know the person's name by referring to them as 'Welcomed Guest' until you remember it. When you introduce them you might say, "I know how to pronounce your name, but I like the way you say it." She will, of course, embarrass you by replying, "It's pronounced 'Cindy.'" I once asked, "How do you spell your first name?" It was J-A-C-K.
___ Gracious guests will appreciate almost anything, but there are things you shouldn't say: "Why are you here?" "You're sitting in my chair." "Are you a tither?" "We really need some new blood." "Would you like to sing with the choir?"
___ If you are stuck, try one of these, "Would you like to come to my Sunday School class? We have some real characters." (This works with most classes.) "A group of us go to lunch after church. Would you like to join us? We'll share our fries." "Could I introduce you to our pastor or Cal Berry?"
___ It would also be helpful if visitors would act like visitors. Guests should arrive five minutes before Sunday School begins. (This will clearly mark them as visitors.) Proper guests act confused--as though the size of the building has bewildered them. Questions like "Where is the rest room?" clearly identify visitors. When someone says, "Hi, how are you?" thoughtful guests respond: "I'm fine. It's kind of you to ask since I'm a visitor." Guests should say their name more than once as in: "Hi, I'm Marilyn. Most people call me Marilyn. You can call me Marilyn. Did I mention that I'm a visitor?"
___ If we all work together, then our churches will become more welcoming communities, and if not, suggest Jake More move to Waco. I can remember his name.

___ Brett Younger is pastor of Lake Shore Baptist Church in Waco.

[blue-duncan]

"By the way, and though I'm a little afraid to ask, what is a neener?"

We trace our history back before 4-5 B.C. It was a neener (we prefer to use the lower case so as not to be as obtrusive as some others like the GRPLs) who rented the homey stall to Joe and Mary. The Wise Men (they got their names from being neeners)displayed admirable neener dexterity with the facts confusing Herod. It was also a neener who rented the colt on Palm Sunday and the upper room for the banquet. It was a neener who let Paul down the wall to escape and Paul's nephew who eavesdropped on the conspiracy was actually an apprentice neener.

Moving right along, Augustine, while contemplating in the garden overheard a neener telling his kids to pick up their room and do their homework. What he thought he heard was "pick up and read, pick up and read" so he looked at Paul's writings and the rest is history. Who do you think carried the hammer and nails for Luther? Certainly not a Priest. Of course it was the lowly neener sexton. I'll stop there else you might think we are bragging.

However, I'll give you one more example of the importance of neeners. There was a classic adventure movie that almost garnered an Academy Award nomination that needed a poignant scene to summerize in a scene all that is good and decent in man and we, the neeners, let them use one of our slogans and didn't even ask for any royalties. I leave you with it,

Son of a motherless goat?
And who are you?

Wherever there is injustice,
you will find us.

Wherever there is suffering,
we'll be there.

Wherever liberty is threatened...

you will find...

The neeners!


"That beer looks soooooooooo good"

I think you have what it takes to be a neener!

[nobdysfool]

If NF want's to be nasty - and misrepresent the facts - he harms only himself.

Funny how some people respond to truth. I wasn't being nasty, just correcting the record. If truth is nasty, so be it.

My ultimatum - even if it may have been misguided - is still up for all to see.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I removed your name from the list, after informing you of it. If you want to try to rewrite history, I can't stop you, but I can correct it.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss issues all you want but don't make it personal.

[Gamecock]

By the way, and though I'm a little afraid to ask, what is a neener?

I could provide you a list of them, but they deny having a membership roll.

I could tell you what they believe, but they contradict themselves.

Basically though, they are a confederation of FReepers whose sole purpose in life is to wrongly contradict everything anyone from the GRPL posts.