The Holy Trinity

3/19/06 | Carl Eldredge

[tenn2005]

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, God is creator of heaven and earth and is the father of the Lord Jesus Christ. Deal with it."

If only you had taken time to read the rest of the chapter you would have a greater understanding of verse 3.

[whispering out loud]

We should remember that the word Am here is the same for eternal, he was saying, "I was, am, will be." He was stating his eternal nature.

[SoothingDave]

So Jesus was the son of the Holy Spirit? But I thought he was the son of God, So does that mean the Holy Spirit is God? Thats what it sounds like to me.

The anti-trinitarians will tell you that ideas like "the Holy Spirit" are rhetorical devices expressing how God's power is made manifest in the world.

Just like Jesus being "son" and "only-begotten" are basically meaningless rhetorical devices. Sure Jesus is called "only-begotten" in Scripture, but that doesn't make him different from any one else.

SD

[whispering out loud]

firstly the word referred to was animated, ie referred to several times as Him, Also was directly called God, and referred to as being with God. Why exactly would he see the need to animate his word, unless he was speaking of Someone in particular. The Word was Christ himself.

What exactly was it that I have failed to explain?

[Eagle Eye]

Is God holy? (hagios)

Is God spirit? (pneuma)

Is God holy spirit? (hagios pnuema)

If you study the words spirit and hold spirit you'll see some interesing concepts.

But if you simply accept what they teach you in Sunday School and your traditional commentaries you'll continue in the same old stuff that gets you no where closer to the truth.

What truth?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(WHAT IS IT THAT I'VE BEEN REPEATING??)

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.


2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,


2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,


2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;


2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,


2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

(If you can't grasp that there is one God and not three, that God is the Father of Jesus Christ, and the the man christ Jesus is the mediator between man and God, the this section fits you completely. I think that about wraps it up for me for today.)

[whispering out loud]

lol, You know I guess I'm just dumb that way, I just so happen to believe that God is omnipotent, and can do as he pleases, and also believe that when He says something in His word, he means it.

[SoothingDave]

that God is the Father of Jesus Christ,

How is God the father of Jesus? Does "only-begotten" mean something? Do cats beget puppies?

SD

[whispering out loud]

Firstly I Grasp one God, I never said God was three entities, merely that the one God had three distinct realms. You obviously never read my post. To deny the sovereignty of Jesus Christ as God, is to deny Scripture itself. Do not even try to attack my character, nor my understanding of the scripture. You have proven several times throughout this thread your ignorance of the scriptures as you've twisted concepts to try to prove your point. As I have said to try to contain God in human physics is to deny His Omnipotence.

[Zuriel]

**Was John wrong?**

No. Here's some points I've tried to make.

Jesus was/is God ONLY because he had/has the Father in him 'doing the works'.

"To wit, that God was IN Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.." 2Cor. 5:19

Red letter versions do not make the distinction of when the Christ was speaking as the voice of the one and only God of the universe, or as a mortal man.

As the voice of the only God, he said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up". John 2:19 or "Before Abraham was, I am". John 8:58

As the Son of God, he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing.." John 5:30 or "I thirst". John 19:28

The Christ is the focal point now. "God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds". God didn't start any of this, without first having the plan of a redeemer. Remember the Son's literal beginning was when he was 'made of a woman, made under the law'.

The 'right hand' is the place of power.
Since the resurrection, all power is given unto him:
"For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell." Col. 1:19
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Col. 2:9

He that hath the Son (the image of God), also hath the Father (the Spirit of God)

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in MY NAME, that will I DO, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask anything in MY NAME, I will do it." John 14:13,14

Who has all power? The one who baptises with the Holy Ghost. Luke 24:49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you..(the Holy Ghost, that portion of the Spirit of God that is 'given to them that obey him').

You want the Father to help you in some way, you call on Jesus.
You want to be filled with God's Spirit, you call on Jesus.
That's why the disciples baptized in the name of Jesus. It's the 'name' (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. John 5:43; Matt. 1:21; John 14:26

This same Jesus shall "..shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. Who ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see (remember, you can't see the Spirit of God): to him be honour and power everlasting. Amen." 1Tim. 6:15,16

[whispering out loud]

Thanks Z, I think this completely supports exactly what I said. Father, Son, and Spirit. Three realms of 1 divine God. Much as he created us in his own image, "body mind spirit" though we lack his eternity, we are a picture of his trinity.

[the-ironically-named-proverbs2]

"And that graphic... is, is not, is, is not, is, is not

"Reminds me of"

it reminds me of a marketing gimmick, like a logo.

[Zuriel]

**Three realms of 1 divine God.**

w o l, I don't limit God to three manifestations.
"God, who at sundry times and divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets.." Heb. 1:1


**Much as he created us in his own image, "body mind spirit" though we lack his eternity, we are a picture of his trinity.**

Well, see, that's the thing. Of the three you mention, only the spirit is eternal.

The body is not deity, but deity will dwell in a body.

The Lord's body served as a sinless sacrifice. Beyond that, this is what he said: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing.." John 6:63

[whispering out loud]

"And the Word became flesh", It doesn't say dwelt in flesh. Jesus was the ushering of God into the flesh, But the scriptures say that he became flesh. Jesus is God.

[Zuriel]

**"And the Word became flesh", It doesn't say dwelt in flesh. Jesus was the ushering of God into the flesh, But the scriptures say that he became flesh.**

That's your interpretation? That the flesh itself, that God inhabited, was a separate and distinct person of God?

So Jesus Christ didn't know what he was talking about in John 6:63?

Or John 4:23,24 where he said "God is a Spirit"?

"..God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.." 2Cor. 5:19

"..God annointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost (the Father in him doing the works, remember?), and with power (what? didn't he already have coequal power?)...for God was with him....Him God raised up.." Acts 10:38-40
The image died, deity cannot die.

God WAS manifest in the flesh (1Tim. 3:16); God, made visible.
Philip said, "Lord, shew us the Father.."
Jesus Christ said, "have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.." John 14:8,9

The Christ is the image of THE..INVISIBLE..GOD, not a separate and distinct, coequal member of a Godhead.

**Jesus is God.**

You're right about that, because of the Father in him. But God is not three persons.

[whispering out loud]

Jesus said baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He also said " John 15:26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

I never said, God is three persons, What I said was that There were three divine manifestations, Realms if I may, you obviously never read my original post, If you had you wouldn't be putting words in my mouth. Jesus existed before time, "In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the word was God, and the same was also with God." It was clear here that he was both part of God, and coexisted with God.

[Zuriel]

**Jesus said baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.**

'Name' is singular. It is Jesus.

And the apostles, who had their understanding opened by the Lord, baptized in the NAME of JESUS.

The passages in John chapters 14,15, and 16, concerning the infilling of the Holy Ghost, are hard for the natural man to understand.

At one moment, the Lord says: "..but ye know him"(who do they know? the Christ); "for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." The next moment he says: "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.....At that day" (when they are filled with the Holy Ghost) "ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." John 14:17,18,20


The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost of Jesus. It's the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead. "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ.." Rom. 8:11

Jesus IS the Holy Ghost.
Jesus said: "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
As Paul told the Colossians, "..Christ in you, the hope of glory".

**What I said was that There were three divine manifestations, Realms if I may**

God (the Everlasting Father; see Is.9:6) WAS manifest in the flesh (the Spirit filled Christ, the Father in him doing the works)
How is the Father manifested to us today? By us being filled with his Spirit.

**It was clear here that he was both part of God, and coexisted with God.**

The word 'coexist' implies separate entities. The scriptures don't teach that God is anything other than a Spirit, made visible to fallen man in a variety of ways, but in these last days by his Son (the Son of God; not God the Son. There is a difference).

[Eagle Eye]

Welcome to FR.

You seem to have a fair head on your shoulders and an interest in this topic.

Here's where we are on another thread. I'm afraid I've gotten some of these guys down the point of pointing at shadows and mumbling incoherently! lol

Anyway, feel free to look at this thread and post appropriately.

You'll quickly see where each poster falls in this debate.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1779545/posts?page=214#214