I agree, but our originally created nature is not the same as it is AFTER the original sin, correct?
The Scripture is clear that we cannot assume another man's guilt, jo.
I will agree - the OT originally held such a concept, but the development of theology did away with this concept later and attributed sin primarily to the individual. I am just speaking about man's present nature and state of existence AFTER the fall, before Baptism is not the same as God's original intent.
Jo, redemption is something we were given through Christ's sacrifice. We owe God gratitude, but He did not give us His blessings with an obligation
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply we have an obligation! It is more a mindset we should have - one of thanksgiving for what God has done for us. We have been Redeemed! The connotations of the word, in Semetic use, is one of "buyback", bailing your brother out of debt. WE were "in debt". And now, God has "paid the price". This line of thought is part of the Patristic view on the Redemptive actions of Christ. Not the only one, but one of them.
Jo, I have heard that quoted many times but that is taken out of context. Sin is absence of God in a sinner. Infants are not sinners. Baptism is a petition for adoption.
True, infants are not personal sinners. But it would seem strange that St. Cyprian, for example, would say infant baptism was given for the remission of sins. While not defining what he meant, there seems to be some concept, not defined yet, that believes that an infant requires baptism to remove some sort of "sin". Over and over, Scriptures says baptism is for the remission of sins - and yet, we find in Apostolic Tradition that they are baptizing infants. Perhaps petitioning is more an Eastern view on the ritual. I don't recall seeing that in Western views from the Fathers, but I'd have to read more on that.
Thanks again for sharing your views on this subject.
Regards
It's not the same. Before it had a potential to be perfect or defective. Now it's defective, but with God's love and the Son's redepmtive sacrifice we can have been given that potential again. However, not without God help because we are already "wounded."
I will agree - the OT originally held such a concept, but the development of theology did away with this concept later and attributed sin primarily to the individual
Jo, the OT is where the sin is established as that of an individual and nto soemthing another man can atone for.
"Every one shall be put to death for his own sin." [Deut 24:16 LXX]; see also 2 Kin 14:6, 2 Chron 25:4, and especially
True, infants are not personal sinners. But it would seem strange that St. Cyprian, for example, would say infant baptism was given for the remission of sins
I would say that St. Cyrprian very much believed in the western concpet of the "original sin" and that perhpas he had some influence on St. Augustine in his beliefs.