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To: jo kus
FK: "I.e., John 3:16, Rom. 10:9-10, 13, John 10:28, 1 John 5:13, Eph. 2:8"

Sorry, your confirmation number doesn't match any of those verses... The above verses presume that a Christian would persevere until the end, but it is not guaranteed.

Certainly John 10 covers perseverance. Oh, I forgot, even Jesus doesn't mean what He says in the Bible. When He says "no one" that is the last thing He means. But even if you don't like these words from Jesus, here are three other sources for perseverance:

Romans 11:29 : ... for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Phil 1:6 : ... being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 : ... who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

---------------

You've lost me. I can't judge your faith but yet I supposedly believe you have faith because you merely declare it so? Who are you and where is Forest Keeper? Have I once said that a person has faith because they declare it so? Have I not argued against this very proposition with you? I am not sure where this is from. "False faith" is not faith, even if one claims it is.

I assure you I am still here too! :) My point is that you interpret all of the verses that speak of an equivalent of someone "professing faith" as meaning that they actually had faith. The reason you must is to show that they later LOST that faith by failing to do good works or otherwise persevere. I, OTOH, say they never had faith in the first place. Can you name a verse or two that describes a person who professed faith but never really had it? My supposition is that you can't, whereas I would say the Bible has plenty of them.

FK: "I have no problem following what the Apostles taught, they wrote down their most important teachings. After them, error crept in."

How do you know that? Where have you established that?

I know it because what the Apostles wrote down looks little like what Catholicism teaches today, in many cases. That's what this thread has shown. Why would the Apostles teach clearly with their spoken words, yet write in pretzeled and confounding riddles for all eternity to misunderstand? Yet you say it happened.

"He who rejects you rejects Me"? So who is "you"? It is the Apostles and their successors.

I disagree. It is every believer. That matches with the verses promising us that, as believers, we don't have to worry about whether we will be persecuted, it is certain to happen.

If anything, Protestantism is not even consistent with itself. Case in point - Sola Fide vs. Sola Scriptura... The Bible ITSELF SPECIFICALLY says that we are NOT saved by faith ALONE.

We define faith completely differently, so James only works for you under a very narrow definition. You say James is right and Paul is wrong, and I say they can both be right under a non-Catholic definition of faith.

8,166 posted on 06/08/2006 9:45:07 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
But even if you don't like these words from Jesus, here are three other sources for perseverance

Here you go, twisting Scriptures again...Let's see what you have done with our wonderful book now.

"...for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." Rom 11:29

Which is speaking about the Jewish nation, Israel! Not you or the individual. Consider actually READING the Scriptures, FK. ALL of them...

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?" Romans 11:22-24

Only a few verses before your supposed "coup de grace", we read that "you shall be cut off"! OH NO! And note, those removed CAN BE GRAFTED BACK INTO the olive tree! If this doesn't shoot down "once saved - always saved" in your mind, I don't know what more to tell you. Some people's minds will be closed to the Truth. The supposed learned men of Scriptures, the Pharisees, closed their minds, too.

You say James is right and Paul is wrong

I don't really see this conversation going anywhere positive. You attribute things to me that I have NEVER said. I have shown quite amply that your version of Scripture interpretation is based on snippets that takes verses entirely out of context and ignores other verses. No matter what I point out, you'll either ignore it or refuse the obvious.

It's one thing to disagree on interpretation, but when the Bible stares you in the face with actual words that prove you are wrong, and you ignore them, what's the point of discussing this further?

Regards

8,173 posted on 06/08/2006 10:22:52 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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