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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; Kolokotronis
I agree with you, but I don't think it [Baptism] has the salvational importance that I am seeing from the other sides.

Your knowledge of Scripture is quite lacking and you ignore what it plainly says:

"when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:20-21.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

"How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom 6:2-4

"you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" Col 2:11-13

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" Titus 3:5-6

This gives a pretty clear meaning to : "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)" Heb 10:22-23

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ez 36:24-28

Clearly, you must not remember these Scriptures that tell us that Baptism is necessary for salvation. We are united to Christ's Passion and Death THROUGH Baptism, as Paul points out. You want access to Christ's redemptive work, you must be baptized.

we DO get Baptized because we have faith. A regenerated heart wants to love and obey. Baptism is in obedience. You say that you get Baptized because Christ commands it, but who cares about following Christ's commands who is without faith? No one. Faith comes first and is essential to following Christ's commands.

Adults get baptized because of their faith in Christ, but without the washing of Baptism, we don't have faith. How can one say they have faith without obeying the commands of Christ? It seems like a very shallow "faith", a dead faith.

Regards

7,870 posted on 06/06/2006 6:27:57 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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To: jo kus; kosta50; Kolokotronis
Your knowledge of Scripture is quite lacking and you ignore what it plainly says:

LOL! Well, I suppose plain meaning is in the eye of the beholder. The only passage that even comes close to attempting to claim that Baptism has salvific effects is 1 Peter 3:20-21. I have already made my case that it was not the water that saved Noah and his family, it was the ark. The comparison doesn't hold. In addition, most translations do not use "antitype" as in foreshadowed, they use words like "symbolize" or "like figure" (KJV). Finally, since this passage speaks of "saving", in order to accept your version would require throwing out all the verses that say that salvation is by faith. There is a mountain of scripture against your interpretation. Baptism is symbolic of spiritual salvation.

I have also already discussed Acts 2:38. Repentance is the inward step that saves and baptism is the outward, public representation of that. Here, "for" means "because of" just like in Matt. 12:41.

Likewise you have seen my comments about John 3:5. There are two births needed to be saved. One is natural birth and one is spiritual birth. Neither involve a water Baptism. That comes later to observe the spiritual birth and to publicly identify with Christ's Church.

Mark 16:16 makes it clear that since the only two choices are saved or damned, that if you are not baptized you are not damned. Baptism is not required for salvation.

In Acts 22:16, calling on the name of the Lord (believing) is what washes away sins, not water.

Rom 6:2-4 speaks of baptism of the Spirit into Christ. Water baptism symbolizes this. Water isn't even mentioned here. The exact same can be said for 1 Cor 6:11, Col 2:11-13, and Titus 3:5-6

Heb 10:22-23 doesn't even speak of baptism of any kind. Neither does Ez. 36:24-28.

Adults get baptized because of their faith in Christ, but without the washing of Baptism, we don't have faith.

Christ's ministry was not about salvation by ritual, it was about salvation by grace and faith.

8,137 posted on 06/08/2006 5:16:25 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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