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To: jo kus; kosta50
I thought that God "shoved" grace down your throat, too!

Sure, but at least I admit it. :) More importantly, it is consistent with the rest of Reformed theology. I don't think that infant Baptism for salvific purposes is consistent with the rest of any theology so grounded in free will.

FK: "How many infants do you think enjoy having their breathing interrupted three times in a row? I doubt many. This is why infant Baptism puzzles me so much."

Say what?

I was referring to the preferred Orthodox practice of thrice dunking for Baptism, which, in principle, I salute! I was trying to illustrate, though, that this practice is nevertheless "against" the will of the infant.

Really, if God grants graces to whom He will and does so WITHOUT seeing their response (as you believe), what difference does it make if God's Spirit comes while a baby or an adult? The person does nothing to earn grace, so the person's age makes no difference.

It makes a difference to me because I think that the Spirit becoming indwelling happens at regeneration, which is only for believers. If the Spirit indwelled and sins were remitted at Baptism, then I'd have to change all of my beliefs about "belief". That would seem to wipe out an entire body of scripture as well. IOW, I'm invested. :)

7,591 posted on 06/01/2006 9:57:12 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50
I was referring to the preferred Orthodox practice of thrice dunking for Baptism, which, in principle, I salute! I was trying to illustrate, though, that this practice is nevertheless "against" the will of the infant.

Infants don't have an active will! To utilize a will, one must have an active, rational mind. Animals and brutes have no will, although they do not desire something by way of instinct. Babies are as yet irrational - so nothing is done "against" their will, properly speaking.

It makes a difference to me because I think that the Spirit becoming indwelling happens at regeneration, which is only for believers.

Which again makes you the initiator of faith. Grace is no longer a gift, then. It appears that you are saying that God only will regenerate those who show proper faith... Sounds like works salvation to me, so I must be misunderstanding you?

If the Spirit indwelled and sins were remitted at Baptism, then I'd have to change all of my beliefs about "belief".

Perhaps you should consider re-reading the Bible when it talks about water, the "laver of regeneration", or just plain baptism. What about when Peter compares the Israelites crossing the Red Sea and comparing it to Baptism? It is for the remission of sins. Or do you deny that the Scriptures say this?

Regards

7,602 posted on 06/02/2006 6:42:41 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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