Posted on 10/17/2005 6:28:59 AM PDT by NYer
If you lived in the 19th century and you were to translate an entirely foreign language, only possessing a modicum of formal schooling, and you were to rely almost entirely upon the whisperings of the Holy Ghost and unfamiliar tools of divine origin, and it required the utmost concentration and zero distraction and you wanted to get it exactly right, how would you do it? I'm sure that your method would earn the scorn of others too.
Look, if our Heavenly Father wanted this to be easy, He and His son, Jesus Christ, would have appeared to the entire world and would have revealed all of the records that He commanded His prophets to record throughout the ages. But what faith would that require? And if we are not to be proved by our faith, for what purpose do we owe this mortal existence?
That would be Holiday Inn Express.
But I've got some good news...
...I saved a bundle on my car insurance by switching to Geico.
Groan.
"I assert that the Book of Mormon is “another gospel” given by an angel, as spoken of in Galatians 1:6-9. What kind of angel would give another gospel? None other than Satan, who the Bible tells us will masquerade as an angel of light to lead people away from the truth. Joseph Smith was a false prophet. The Book of Mormon is a false gospel. And we must make every effort to show Mormons that the true gospel of Jesus Christ still stands. It is time to abandon the evil doctrines that say we are gods in infancy who must earn our salvation, and return to the truth of the gospel that says we are completely unworthy, but the blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). We cannot afford to rest our case while there are still people in this world that do not know the truth.
As I've pointed out previously the word Nephilim is used in the Old Testament do designate Fallen Angels. The root of the word is indeed HEBREW not Egyptian as Church leaders will proclaim and it means fallen one. Did a "fallen angel" proclaim the doctrine of the LDS to Joseph Smith?
If you were to question for example how qualified Harriet Miers is for the SCOTUS, would you go to only "pro-harriet" sites or would you also visit the "anti-harriet" sites. Someone who is investigating should look carefully at both sites before they form any opinions. To do otherwise is to invite disaster.
I've been quoting a website. . . here is the link. Please visit http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism/witnessesontrial.php
Without them, it comes across - with all due respect - to the non-LDS person as just made up.
Correction:
Translate a language that never existed.
Exactly...even the 3 witesses said they view the plate "by the spirit," which is NOT to say they actually SAW them.
You're wrong.
THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSESNot only did they see the plates and their engravings with their own eyes, but they heard God's voice tell them that the plates had been translated by the gift and power of God and thereby they know that they are true. The Lord commanded them to make a written statement, a testimony or witness of what they saw, what they heard, and to the truthfulness of the translation.Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
OLIVER COWDERY
DAVID WHITMER
MARTIN HARRIS
Don't be so sure. See the article "Jewish and Other Semitic Texts Written in Egyptian Characters" for an interesting discussion of "reformed Egyptian."
How come it is, that the church was able to "rewrite" their testimony a CENTURY after they signed the original? Or was the Church wrong when they published the first...the Chruch was mistaken?
“Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declaredit unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.” [emphasis added] OLIVER COWDERY DAVID WHITMER MARTIN HARRIS
Ok, my bad....The two renditions are the same.
Now you can see that it's all in the interpretation (which LDS are very good at and the rest of us fail.)
To me hearing voices...and seeing by the power of God not Man, imply a hallucinatory state, not exactly hands-on type of testimony. Even if they (like the 8 witnesses) declared that they hefted (approximated at over 200 lbs.)the plates and examined them....you'd have to be an assayer to determine if they were gold and none of them knew what the supposed "script" was, it could have been anything!
I guess it's all in the "translation" - - get it, I made an obscure joke.
Just to be sure, I copied both versions of the Testimony into MS Word and did a word count (after inserting a space where you had omitted one, between declared and it). Both versions have the same number of words, characters, and spaces.
Perhaps you had another "original rendition" that you had intened to post.
You are oh, so correct...I already corrected my mistake. I answered before I had done the same type of comparison.
But do you have another version showing that the Church had re-written the original? And if not, what ever prompted you to make such a charge in the first place?
If you are relying on the various anti-Mormon web sites for your information, you should be aware that many (perhaps most) are unreliable. The professional anti-Mormons—those who make a living "debunking" Mormonism—cannot be trusted to give an accurate account of Mormonism. For example, the site you quoted before about the witnesses to the Book of Mormon contains a number of errors.
Ummm...wrong again.
No thanks. That's like using Ms Sheehan as a source on foreign policy.
Harris later recanted and, under pressure, admitted that he had seen the plates with "the eyes of faith" under a cloth.
Cowdery (the former school teacher and transcriptionist) and Whitmer later gave out statements that the LDS were "not a true church." Whitmer published a tract that called Joseph Smith a "false prophet."
Spiff, if you're going to bring it, bring it well. A Catholic like me shouldn't know more about your faith than you do.
BTTT
Martin Harris never denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon, even after he was excommunicated.
This is from an account of Harris affirming his testimony of the book and the angel that appeared to the 3 witnesses:
“On one occasion several of his old acquaintances made an effort to get him tipsy by treating him to some wine. When they thought he was in a good mood for talk they put the question very carefully to him, ‘Well, now, Martin, we want you to be frank and candid with us in regard to this story of your seeing an angel and the golden plates of the Book of Mormon that are so much talked about. We have always taken you to be an honest good farmer and neighbor of ours but could not believe that you did see an angel. Now, Martin, do you really believe that you did see an angel, when you were awake?’ ‘No,’ said Martin, ‘I do not believe it.’ The crowd were delighted, but soon a different feeling prevailed, as Martin true to his trust, said, ‘Gentlemen, what I have said is true, from the fact that my belief is swallowed up in knowledge; for I want to say to you that as the Lord lives I do know that I stood with the Prophet Joseph Smith in the presence of the angel, and it was the brightness of day.’”Harris re-joined the Church in 1870. On his deathbed he bore testimony to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and his experience in witnessing it and the angel:
‘The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true.’
So much for your misinformation about Martin Harris.
Cowdery (the former school teacher and transcriptionist) and Whitmer later gave out statements that the LDS were "not a true church."
Oliver Cowdery, even after being excommunicated from the Church, even testified in a court of law of his experience with the angel and the Book of Mormon:
The opposing counsel thought he would say something that would overwhelm Oliver Cowdery, and in reply to him in his argument he alluded to him as the man that had testified and had written that he had beheld an angel of God, and that angel had shown unto him the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. He supposed, of course, that it would cover him with confusion, because Oliver Cowdery then made no profession of being a “Mormon,” or a Latter-day Saint; but instead of being affected by it in this manner, he arose in the court, and in his reply stated that, whatever his faults and weaknesses might be, the testimony which he had written, and which he had given to the world, was literally true.
Cowdery quit his law practice and rejoined the Church in 1848. He had this to say before that event:
I wrote, with my own pen, the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages) as it fell from the lips of the Prophet Joseph, as he translated it by the gift and power of God, by the means of the Urim and Thummim, or as it is called by the book, Holy Interpreters. I beheld with my eyes, and handled with my hands, the gold plates from which it was transcribed. I also saw with my eyes and handled with my hands the Holy Interpreters. That book is true. ...It contains the everlasting gospel, and came forth to the children of men in fulfillment of the revelations of John, where he says he saw an angel come with the everlasting gospel to preach to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. It contains principles of salvation; and if you, my hearers, will walk by its light and obey its precepts, you will be saved with an everlasting salvation in the kingdom of God on high.
On his deathbed, Cowdery's last words reaffirmed his testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
So much for your misinformation about Oliver Cowdery.
Whitmer published a tract that called Joseph Smith a "false prophet."
David Whitmer was quoted in no less than 72 interviews after he left the Church concerning his experience with the angel and the plates. He never denied the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
When another misinformed anti-Mormon claimed that Whitmer and the other 3 witness had denied their testimonies, Whitmer published a rebuttal in which he testified of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. He wrote:
It is recorded in the American Cyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica, that I, David Whitmer, have denied my testimony as one of the Three Witnesses to the divinity of the Book of Mormon: and that the two other witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, denied their testimony to that book.
I will say once more to all mankind, that I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof. I also testify to the world, that neither Oliver Cowdery nor Martin Harris ever at any time denied their testimony. They both died affirming the truth of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon.
Further, the Chicago Tribune published the following about Whitmer's deathbed testimony of the Book of Mormon's authenticity and truthfulness:
David Whitmer, the last one of the three witnessed to the truth of the Book of Mormon, is now in a dying condition at his home in Richmond. Last evening he called the family and friends to his bedside, and bore his testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon and the Bible.So much for your misinformation about David Whitmer.
Despite leaving the Church or being excommunicated at one time or another, NONE of the three witnesses recanted their testimony. All of them reaffirmed their testimonies on their deathbeds - it was that important to them.
Whatever anti-Mormon site you're quoting is, like the others, spreading information of a highly questionable nature. If it was this WRONG about the testimonies of the three witnesses, it is just as wrong about most other things.
Sorry - not using an "anti-Mormon" website.
I'm using hard-copy books. I have a large collection. There are frequent wandering recruiters from the Mormons, Adventists and Witnesses going through my neigborhood. At a minimum, I hope to save a few of these people when they come to my door.
The Mormon visits have only stepped up now that the absolutely odd-looking temple in Stone Oak went up.
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